Related Information to Atheists Not To Be Feared!

Atheists Not To Be Feared! - Page 9

I don't get the whole atheist thing. I mean to just think we showed up here randomly is a bit too much. There has to be like a supreme force out there. Some people just like refer to it as god but it could be just a higher race of aliens. Plus when you're an atheist you miss out on so many things like Christmas and Easter.

Feared To Atheists

Did you hear about the dyslexic agnostic who suffers from insomnia?--He lies awake all night wondering if there's a Dog...OK, that's an old one, but maybe some of you haven't heard it.

Hello, all, my name is Joe and I am an atheist, and I am not be feared in the least. I'm not militant and I have no hostility to those of faith, so feel free to make observations about my views and ask questions. Indeed, I'm fascinated by faith, my background is in philosophy and theology. I was raised a devout believer, entered a Catholic seminary and studied to be a priest in my youth. And now I do not believe in any gods.

By the way, I am both agnostic and atheist and I suppose I should explain that, because there has been some confusion here on the use of those words. The term "agnostic" was coined by English biologist Thomas Huxley in about 1860 to describe himself. He used it to mean that the existence of supernatural realities, including gods, could neither be established nor denied by use of reason, they are unknowable in that regard. Beyond that, one can be either an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist. A person who claims that God can only be known by faith would be an example of an agnostic theist. An agnostic atheist might be someone who says, "Well, I can't absolutely prove God isn't there, but I see no reasons to believe in such a being, so I don't."

I certainly can't prove the non-existence of every possible deity, I would have to be omniscient to do that. However, I have found no evidence for any such beings, so I do not accept their reality. Thus I am an agnostic atheist. However, in terms of certain concepts of god, I am what would be termed a "strong" or "critical" atheist. I actively deny they could exist. Such is my view of the Christian God (Which, by association, would include the Jewish and Islamic claims of divinity--the LDS conception of deities is a whole 'nother animal!).

I'll start by addressing one particular issue. It is extremely common for believers to claim that without God, there is no foundation for morality. There is a famous line by the great Russian writer, Fyodor Dostoevsky--"If there is no God, everything is permissible." I have quoted this to Christian friends and they enthusiastically agree. They are not as pleased when I assert the opposite--"If there is a God, everything is permissible." Yet it is undeniably true.

Whatever the basis for morality, it is humans who have absolute choice in this world, not gods. Adolph Hitler can decide to exterminate six million Jews, gypsies, communists and political dissenters while the God who supposedly inscribed the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" stands idly by and allows it to happen. Joseph Stalin starves and murders 30 million of his own people and God the omnipotent renders himself impotent. Every day, on a smaller scale, God apparently throws up his hands in helplessness as some sick bastard kidnaps your daughter from the safety of her own home and sexually abuses her for months. Sadly, if God exists, EVERYTHING is permissible.

"That's not God's fault," objects the believer. "He has given us free will and people are the ones disobeying his commandments and committing these evils."

Wow. So God valued the free will of Hitler more than the lives of millions of his victims? Imagine how that would work here on earth if God's followers did the same:

"9-11. What is the nature of your emergency?"
"Oh, my God, help! My daughter has just been raped and murdered!"
"Where did this occur, ma'am?
"Next door, hurry! He's still there, send the police!"
"We will dispatch an ambulance to pick up your daughter's remains, try to stay calm."
"What about the police?"
"We're not sending them at this time."
"Are you insane? He'll get away, hurry!"
"Ma'am, this is Jesusville, Texas. We strive to be perfect just like our Heavenly Father. He doesn't interfere with the free choices of people, and neither do we. Was your daughter saved?"
"Saved, what are you talking about? She's dead!"
"I mean did she accept Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior?"
"We are Muslim, we submit to the will of Allah."
"I'm so sorry for you, she is now burning in Hell for eternity. Don't worry, though, her murderer will be punished as well after he dies--well, unless he repents and accepts Jesus, then he will be welcomed into the bosom of Abraham as angels rejoice."

That's harsh, I realize, but is it inaccurate? Even if you believe that God sets moral standards, can anyone deny that he does nothing to enforce them in this world? Well, except Bible stories, where he wipes out nearly the entire world for wickedness, destroys Pharaoh and his army along with the first-born of Egypt, rains fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gomorrah, along with multiple punishments for his "Chosen People" for being unfaithful and the "ethnic cleansing" of their enemies. The God of the Old Testament took names and kicked ass, but by the time mass-murdering atheists like Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao came along he apparently lost all interest...

OK, I freely admit, so far this has been a very negative critique of Christian morality. If you're a believer, I wouldn't blame you at all for being somewhat upset with me. You may be wondering, "OK, so what do you have to offer? Atheism is even worse, it's a free-for-all, no one is in charge.!"

If you're interested, in my next post, I will present what I believe is a rational basis for morality that is not rooted in the commands of divinities. In the meantime, I welcome any comments, criticisms and even outright rants. I'm thick-skinned, so if you want to tell me I'm on the path to Hell, I'm all ears.

Atheists Not To Be Feared! Beliefs Religious General

Thanks for going into a deeper sense of your thought process concerning this Topic.

I think this is what separates you from the typical atheist. Most atheists, or at least the ones I have met usually take no interest in religion and they generally do not stay quiet about it but try to make a joke of the affair. I do not agree with this as everyone has various beliefs and traditions that should be respected as that person's beliefs. An atheist does not have to agree but it does not mean one should go out of their way to disrespect the beliefs of others.

That is correct because it is natural of men do do their own thing whatever that is and feel justified by it. However, unlike you most atheists refuse to believe that.

That is true, we do have agency over ourselves but what keeps everyone in check is that we are not free from the consequences of our actions. Therefore an atheist or a proclaimed believer will both keep the law of the land so they do not end up in a jail.

I ask questions about this all the time and have found very little by the way of a good answer ( for reference only: Source 1 ).

This is supposed to be a Mature Minded Community so no one should be upset over your opinion that is after all that it is, your opinion. You also present it in a cordial manner. I find most atheists angry in their approach to these Topics and often choose to insult rather than Discuss. That may be a stereotype but it is one I have come across a lot.

That is good, but it is not my decision whether you go to hell or not.

Page 9 Feared To Atheists

JB,

I appreciate your reasoned response--thanks for the link to the other thread that relates to this issue (which contained a further link as well). The discussions there were fascinating and illustrate the wide range of approaches people take to what is commonly referred to as "The Problem of Evil."

I'm not sure if it's proper to generalize about "all atheists"--but I am not a part of any atheist organizations. Many atheists I have met disbelieve not because of intellectual reasons, but emotional ones. It's quite common for people who have had negative experiences in settings of faith to not only reject that faith, but God as well. The opposite occurs as well. People often convert to belief based on an emotional, subjective basis. One thing I think we can agree on is this: Emotion does not determine truth. Regardless of how strongly one feels either way, that does not either establish or disprove the existence of God.

As far as evil is concerned, there are two types to be addressed. The first is intentional evil, that chosen by persons. The second is "natural evil"--a prime example would be the tsunami of 2006. This dilemma was framed long before Christianity by the Greek philosopher Epicurus:

As we both know, volume upon volume addressing this issue have been written by Christians (as well as those of other faiths) of all denominations over the centuries. No one has come up with a satisfactory answer, it remains a point of great contention. It involves every person, because we all experience suffering, evil, and misery in this life. I know it's especially personal for you, wondering why your son must go through life with such a burden that also profoundly affects your entire family. My family has a similar burden, at the opposite end of life. My mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease several years ago and is declining slowly but steadily, and no longer even recognizes her own children

Atheism has a very simple, complete answer. And it is also not comforting in the least--it's even disturbing. That answer is this--If there is no God, then evil happens due to two simple reasons. Humans choose evil, while natural disasters and diseases have no moral component, they simply occur. The tsunami happened not because God caused or allowed it, but was the inevitable natural result of two tectonic plates releasing pent-up pressures.

Why would I accept such a bleak view? Simply because everything I observe about the world demonstrates such a harsh reality. Innocent people are killed and mutilated every day by the forces of nature. They also suffer from deliberate acts of malice intentionally directed at them by other people. Devout believers from every faith on earth fervently pray to their god or gods for protection and relief, but no one is immune. I have no doubt that Elizabeth Smart's parents prayed for the safety of their children every day before her kidnapping and ordeal. Those of faith are quick to credit such prayers for her return, but they rarely seem to wonder why he didn't listen to their prayers to keep such an atrocity from happening in the first place. Also, despite endless prayers, most such kidnappings end in tragedy, her case was a wonderful exception.

High profile atheists like Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens are out there "in-the-face" of believers with books and constant media appearances. They think faith is dying and are doing everything in their power to bring it about more quickly. They are convinced that when such "superstitions" are rejected, scientific reason will guide mankind to a wonderful new future. They are absolutely wrong.

There are two reasons why faith claims will remain a central part of human culture for any foreseeable future. The first is, that by our very natures, we want transcendent meaning. The second is that faith offers hope for an existence beyond this short life. I'll be brutally honest about what atheism offers: NOTHING. When this brief flash of existence ends, you devolve into your constituent elements and cease to exist as an individual. You are gone. Whatever you accomplished in life, the precious relationships your formed, your dreams for the future vanish into an abyss of absolute nothingness. Only transient memories remain in those who loved you and they will persist only for a brief time as well.

Is it any wonder that most people choose faith? My closest friend in this world, a classmate with whom I started studies for the priesthood years ago presses me on the matter whenever we get together, which is often. Why would I choose unbelief over the promises of faith?

The fact is, I'm completely open to being convinced otherwise, which has led to a wide range of discussions over the years. I would love to find that I can continue beyond this life, exploring existence, learning new things, expanding my relationships with those I love. So I constantly seek new perspectives, some of which are apparent here. One thing I have told him over time is that I will choose truth over comfort.

I'm not an atheist because it's "fun" or fulfilling, I have adopted the position because that is where the evidence has led me. I could certainly be wrong.

OK, JB, I haven't even addressed the issue of an atheistic morality, I guess I should start a new thread on that. Thanks for your input, take care.

Feared To Atheists

Yes we can agree on that most definitely.

Good point. One must necessarily have an enduring supply of self-esteem since hope is what mostly what keeps the psyche of humans from collapsing under impending doom or lack of a savior.

True. Some may see it as being able to readjust your priorities. Instead of having to pay monies to a charity you can now spend it on yourself. I thought it was interesting that you said:

That goes in line with what I just expressed. I see that you look at the same points I do, not altogether in the same way but you would probably be an asset to the wisdom of whatever union you attach yourself to.

This Thread is fine actually.

Rather off topic, but...
When you get to 100 Posts please request a Blog be opened for you here, you request it in your Intro Thread. I will like to read your take on things as they occur in your life.

Atheists Not To Be Feared!

I tend to look at life as a test.

You are given your parameters for the test (call it morality or commandments).
You are given a certain time for the test.
The instructor may or may not answer any questions during the testing period.
The test will be graded upon completion.
When you get your test results back, you can then ask questions of the instructor.

The only difference is that everyone in the class will get a different test. Some questions maybe more difficult and you may be asked to show more work. Some will get a easy test that just takes a long time to complete. Some will get a short test, but they all get graded once completed.

I can understand asking why God just doesnt step in and right the wrongs of the world, I just don't see a lot of use in it. Why doesnt God just step in and make all sporting events end in a tie? Why would he allow disappointment to be felt from the losing team? I know...sporting events are trivial. But in the grander scheme of humanity, arent our individual lives a bit trivial? For those that believe, I am sure we can agree that Hitler is probably cruising Hell or where ever those that don't make the bar hang out in the afterlife. We are shocked by the violence he brought to the world in such a short time. However, do you think that God would be more shocked at the relatively quick violence of Hitler's reign or the general greed and worship of posessions that has permeated our species? God is in this thing for the long haul...individually, we got about 70 plus years and that is a blink in the records of time.

I think it is no mistake that we are taught that we should have a personal relationship with God, because I think the teacher is often too busy to take our questions. I am not saying that God is not going to listen to you...he may answer your questions when asked, but I don't think it is that often. Honestly, you already know the answer to the questions you ask God, but may not want to suffer the consequences of making the right decision.

Edited: Vincenzo on 15th Jun, 2010 - 1:54am

Atheists To Feared! - Page 9

Name: Factsforyou!

Comments: How can anyone think about the massive size of the universe and how intricate we are as living beings on this planet and think it all just happened randomly? I think it is way easier to believe that SOMEONE powerful was behind this rather than thinking it just happened from an explosion. I mean where is the logic in that? You might call that SOMEONE god or Allah or great spirit but it all points to someone way bigger than us. To think we are alone just here waiting to die is very narrow minded.

Atheists To Feared! General Religious Beliefs - Page 9

JB says something that I never really thought about like that before. Hope is the element in our lives that keeps us going, you know like getting up each day doing things we may not feel we want to do. If there is no divinity nothing to really hope for then we would not feel like doing certain things that benefit anyone else but ourselves. Sometimes you do things feeling like someone is looking on and smiling. If that isn't how it is you probably will not get any pleasure helping others. This might sound bad but the most caring people I know believe in god or divinity and the ones that don't are very self-centered. Why bother, we die and that's it kind of mentality, live life like a party.