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LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays - Page 15

A friend of mine has been listening to the local leadership's ideas of this upcoming vote for gay marriage in CA. He is tired of it and has had a personal revelation telling him that he should not vote as his local leaders have been pressing. Last Sunday, the local leaders read a letter from the first Presidency requesting monetary donations and time be given to "ProtectMarriage.com". They were instructed on the upcoming vote and told how to vote in order to be a faithful saint. I was shocked about the voting instruction. I thought that only happened in Las Vegas wards on women's rights issues, (personal experience).

I looked on the internet and found multiple people express experiences in which their Stake Presidents met in their home and requested a donation in an amount suggested by the SP. They were given a donation envelope which included a slip to fill out your name, ward and amount and told that the leadership would get a list of who paid how much. (Here are personal accounts: My Girl Bill

After reading the entire thread, and writing 10 pages of comments, I selected the best ones and will include them here...

Is this a question of morality or a question of politics? If morality, then it shouldn't be voted on, but rather true principles should be taught from the pulpit by persuasion. Are we asking if homosexuality is moral? No, that is not in question. It isn't about whether it is moral or not, it is about whether or not people who choose to live that type of life style can have the benefits of heterosexual couples from the political and financial standpoint of the government. The question is, "Will the Government recognize homosexual marriage?" The church then is entering the political arena, this will not bode well and sets the stage for future political involvement.

I agree, we should enforce our understanding of morality on others by law. WAIT, I think that was the other plan presented... We are pleasing Satan more by taking from others the freedom to choose. The real problem is that by limiting their freedoms we are limiting our own and telling the world that we are willing to accept others voting in laws which make such choices for us too. Polygamy was up for vote once too. And whether or not you agree with it, the church lost that vote which was also a morality issue.

Not so, our church has proclaimed their stance on homosexuality very well. It has taught the doctrine and people can understand if we say, "Homosexuality is against our beliefs and So is enforcing our beliefs on others." A very clear and understandable stance. The world will not be confused, and we will lead by example.

I agree, so why is the church involved in this political matter?

Do you see how we keep taking this back to a debate about whether or not homosexuality is morally wrong? I haven't seen a single quote about it being RIGHT! Why do we think that is the point of the law? Nobody, except a very few gays/lesbians think it is ok. We are not voting on what we think is moral. We are voting on a law that enforces morality! Isn't that the plan of Satan from the beginning? Take our agency and force us to be good? I promise enforcing a law that doesn't allow gays to be married won't stop them from doing the sin. But IT will set the precedent for more laws governing our morality. And when those laws are against our beliefs we will be in real trouble. The only solution is to vote for freedom of the minorities. Let them govern their lives and we can govern ours. What if one day, they made it illegal to have heterosexual marriages because they were the majority? Would you vote for or against freedom then? The "law of universal application" is never wrong and says that what we do to others universally applies or is done to you. We cannot limit their freedoms without limiting our own.

Yes. I myself support Gay marriage. Not because I believe in homosexual relations, but because I believe in and support the freedom to sin. I believe that the government has no right to enforce moral codes or moral action that does not cause damage to others or their property. Willing consent among adults is an agency issue.

I am not saying that we should support gay marriage, but that we should do as we did in the pre-mortal council and support freedom to sin. Support the rights of everyone to govern their lives and make mistakes, even at the risk of some not making it. Do we still support that decision we made before we were born?

This is a very good point. We are not just looking at Gay Marriage but we are looking at the very purpose of laws. The principle behind what we do here will affect other laws we enact. If we take freedom of choice when it suits us, then inevitably someone else will do the same and we will be the minority. But what about euthanasia, infanticide and other grey laws. The rule I go for is freedom of choice when that choice does not interfere with the freedom of choice for others. You may apply that any way you wish to see how I would vote on any subject. In the pre-mortal world, this very discussion was had. The war of words that began there is continuing here. But now, Satan has object lessons. He says, look and see what you have allowed to happen. He lies, You are at fault for not stopping such terrible things. Their choices are your responsibility because you allowed them to make the choice when you could have stopped them. The truth is that their choices are not my responsibility. I am not condemned for allowing others to choose evil. God even goes so far as to allow evil to be done to the righteous without stopping it. See Alma 14:10-11. One day, when we are like God and have all power, we also will have to withhold our power and allow others to do evil...

Notice the fear in your statement. The devil is always behind fear. And you are right that the devil lies with truth. Be not afraid, for God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of only 5 righteous people. Also take into account that with or without the law they will continue the homosexual acts, so creating a law such as this will not protect a society from the judgments of God.

Isiah and bobnbrittw, I loved and agreed with your posts! Thank you!

This may be true, but the consequences of doing the right thing are not always pleasant. When the lawsuits come, they will have to be dealt with. If unworthy members can sue the church for permission to be sealed, then so can anyone, regardless of the sin. As for America, our freedom of religion should protect us. If it doesn't, then we have bigger problems to deal with than discussing whether Gay should be married.

The law is not asking for our moral value, it is asking if the government should have the right to dictate and enforce the moral values of the masses on the minorities!(Feeling very adamant!) I can not stand for that! Why is the church encouraging us to vote and financially support efforts that enforce our morality on others?

I believe because the church is afraid of loosing it's status as a 501© tax exempt corporation under Nevada Law. BIG financial challenges! Lots of work and re-organizing for the church, also what will they do with the businesses they own? Oh, and what about the colleges? Will they be required to house gays to keep their accreditations"? We aren't a Free-Church and the government does have say over what we do because we are a corp. Here is a link that explains briefly: dissolution-of-the-corporate-lds-church
I hope this is not the case as the leadership would be saying by example, when it is financially hard to do the right thing or in your best interest, support the wrong cause... Certainly the leadership have thought this through from a religious stand point? And they are aware of the war for freedom in the pre-mortal world, are they taking their stance from a moral, political or self interest point of view?

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Any thoughts on my last post? Agree or disagree that the church should be involved? If the Stake Pres. knocked on your door and was asking for a specific donation amount, would you donate your money or not? How would you feel? Any thoughts or advice for my friend? Please read my last post and add your comments...

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays Studies Doctrine Mormon

I pay tithes and fast offering, nothing more, nothing less. As far as the church is concerned, sure get involved, I never did care to see marriage be anything more than between man and woman. Next thing they'll want to do is marry their dog and cat.

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Amonhi, you really need to see about upgrading so you can check the LDS Mature board. I am looking forward to read some of the views you have! One of them is about the Church and the Federal Marriage Amendment (this thread is only about Gay Marriage). You will read more of my thoughts there but answering your question:

No, I would not donate a cent on this.

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Neither would I, regardless of my agreement or disagreement on this issue. I Just do not think someone in my area could get away with requiring individuals to donate to a specific cause as a member of the Stake presidency or any leader.

Now if the stake President, not acting in the name of the church, came by asking for donations to a specific cause that I agreed with, then that would be different. Being in the leadership of the Church does not preclude that person from becoming strongly active on one side or the other. Being politically active in the Church is a good thing, I believe.

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays

Name: Shauna

Comments: this is a very interesting discussion. I look forward to joining it more in depth, however I'm short on time at the moment. I do have a quick question for you Amonhi. Which laws are created by our governments which are NOT based on morality? Are not all laws based on someone's idea of right or wrong and enforcing that view?

LDS Perspective Gay Marriage Mormon Gays - Page 15

Excellent question. I had to ask myself this too! What is the purpose of Governmental laws?

"To protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

What is a moral law vs a non-moral based law?
Moral laws would be laws that are based on the free exercise of personal conscience AND which DO NOT interfere with the same exercise of others" personal conscience. All personal Conscience decisions should be protected and given the utmost freedom of option UNTIL the point it interferes with others" freedom of conscience.

So are you interfering with someone else's agency? Then there should be a law protecting others from you interfering in their lives. And from them interfering from your life.

Notice for example, the moral law to not lie. This is a moral law until it becomes begins to have effect on decisions made in court which directly interfere with actions taken on peoples lives. So, it is not illegal to lie, unless in a legal proceeding which enforces decisions on people in which the lie DOES effect the agency of others. When a lie is important and affects decisions that will be enforced such as in court, it is called perjury and is punishable.

Having sex outside marriage is a moral question if both parties involved consent. But if one party does not consent, then it is called rape and is illegal.

Gays getting married is a moral question because both parties consent. No ones freedom is being taken. However, when my moral standard is imposed on gays because I don't think they should be together, then the law should protect them by stopping me from interfering in their lives or from interfering with their free exercise of conscience. (The law should protect their pursuit of happiness.) In other words, the law should protect their free exercise of conscience which is deciding that they want to be married and that they want to have the same benefits of marriage as heterosexuals. It is the ONLY way to ensure peace!

Other reasons for Governmental laws in relation to Gay marriage is that of dealing with the challenges of marriage relationships. Without a marriage agreement, they are only living together. They do not get the benefits given to heterosexuals in estate handling, tax filing, divorce and other legal not moral related issues associated with such relationships.

All this things relate to the purpose of governments as spelled out in the D&C. If the church is fighting against the government to deny the individual the free exercise of conscience, then it is against D&C 134:2.

LDS Perspective Gay Marriage Mormon Gays Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 15

I would argue that the entry of Homosexual marriage into society is intrusive. This has never been a right in all of western History, and in fact changes societal norms so much, that it interferes with my life. I believe it will destroy marriage as an institution, and it will force (in my opinion) the Church to accept homosexual marriages as equal to Heterosexual marriages.

James Fuast said

So in my view Homosexual Marriage/Civil unions are the beginning of the end of the Human Family, so it in fact is interfering in my life.

Laws are strictly based on moral and Social Mores. Allowing homosexual marriage destroys a long held social more' that I am not willing to see disappear.

This is why I fight it personally. So the Churches activity in supporting marriage as between a man and a woman is secondary to me.