Related Information to LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays - Page 16

How does it take away your ability to govern yourself? Isn't that what the law is protecting? If you have the ability to govern yourself, why deny that from others who believe, feel or want to be different from you?

Such a law puts men on unequal grounds. Applying the Law of Universal Application to your comment results in them saying that the existence of our heterosexual marriages into society is intrusive to them. Now, in a society that give so much weight to the minorities, do you think we should take on that fight? Even if we won, it is not putting us on equal grounds as expressed in Alma 30.

Regarding the Faust Quote;

Regardless of whether these are true statements or not, they are ALL moral based arguments. If you want the Federal Government to determine what is "I am sure this is pleasing to the devil." then go ahead and vote against Gay marriage. But know this, When the government begins enforcing laws to prevent what is pleasing to the devil, then we can know the plan of God is frustrated and Satan is winning! Remember, it was Satan's idea to force people to be good. And by so doing, we will not qualify to be Gods, we cannot be accountable for our actions, without accountability we cannot be blessed or condemned. The plan becomes utterly frustrated. I will not be a party to frustrating Gods plan, will you? Which do you now think causes more damage to the plan of salvation? Choosing to allow people to choose to sin or choosing to force the moral codes of the general masses? In my eyes it is clear.

My goodness, he makes it sound like we will loose our choice to be heterosexual!

And you bought it, hook line and sinker! ;-) Do you really think that by giving people their freedom to choose that you will magically become homosexual? Will your children become homosexual? Will "all adults" become homosexual if this law is passed? Come on now, really...

This is actually a lie from Satan. The lie is, "you had better take their freedom before they take yours!" The funny thing is that the truth of God is, "protect their freedom and you will protect your own." Remember the truth sets you free. By allowing yourself to choose for others, you are in the very act choosing to allow others to choose for you. Guess what others will choose for you...

I am sure that is what they said about polygamy when we lost the vote... I guess from your view it is acceptable to win some and loose some. From my view, I guarantee a win for me every time! Oh, and a win for you every time too! Because we will both have the freedom God gave us to sin or to not.

If this hasn't persuaded you, I am not sure anything can. It is a funny yet sad thing that the last exercise of free agency will be used to end the use of free agency, and we won't even see it coming...

Gays Mormon Marriage Gay Perspective LDS

Straight from the scriptures, are the leaders acting against the following scriptures? What do you think?

Is the First Presidencies" position on the Gay Marriage amendments directly against D&C 134 regarding what laws should be enacted? What do you think, yes or no? And Why?

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays Studies Doctrine Mormon

This issue has nothing to do with free agency and much more to do with the institution of Civil Marriage and how its defined. Those on my side define Marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Others want to expand that definition to include same sex relationships. Others would like to expand this definition to include Polygamy, or others who would consider marriage between the very young 5-6 years old and those above 18 to be normal, while others would like to include Human-animal Marriages (really there are groups fighting for this, though not that many.)

Source 1

Before you argue that I am taking this to extremes, we must realize that there has to be a defining line where marriage is legitimate and where it has become outside of the accepted societal definition. I choose to define it one way, you are choosing to include Same sex marriage, but why should we stop at same sex marriage. What social construct is stopping us from including the very young in this equation. It is a social construct, that restricts a 10 year old from having sex and marrying a 20 year old(that child is above the age of accountability so why not allow them to make that decision, or are we taking away their free agency?) It is a social limitation that is stopping a person from entering a sexual relationship with an animal. If we are saying we cannot have a social limit on the definition of marriage, it is a little hard to restrict these other types of marriages also.

Society has the right to determine the definitions of Marriage and what definitions they would like to restrict (as it is a civil concern at this point). Until Government is entirely our of the Marriage business, the Government can define what it is. When they define it, they will ultimately restrict some groups ability to marry whatever other group, or object that they want. If we follow this scripture to the letter as you have interpreted it, all forms of marriage should be allowed and we do not have the right to restrict them. Therefore you, I and all those arguing on this issue have a legitimate interest in defining what marriage is or we must not define it at all.

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So are you now saying this is NOT a moral issue but a civil issue?

Moral issue?:
I think that if we agree it is a moral issue, then we have to decide whether the D&C 134 was inspired or not as it says we do not create laws that make moral decisions but laws should protect freedom of moral decisions.

Civil Issue?:
If this is a civil issue, regarding how the government defines marriage for it's own procedures, then why is the church involved?

Either way, if the church gets involved it should be supporting freedom of the individual according to D&C 134.

I didn't know there were any laws against sexual relations with animals. I thought that was just between individuals and God. I also know that such laws will not stop the practice, and why should they? It someone wants to be married to their horse why not? It doesn't hurt me in any way. And children marrying? I understand that the law says that children under 18 are not considered able to make decisions regarding marriage at all. So their parents must sign a waiver for them. Makes sense to me. Why are you so interested in restricting others? That is really the bottom line. Control over others, why do you need/want it? Can you let go of controlling others?

Two thoughts.
1) You say this is a civil concern at this point. I agree. So, Why is the church involved in a civil or political decision? D&C 134:9 says "We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, ..."
Certainly the Church must be wrong if it is mingling religious INFLUENCE with civil government? Agree or maybe the scripture is wrong or maybe my interpretation of the scripture is wrong?

So civil = No church INFLUENCE D&C 134:9

2) What gives society the right to dictate civil benefits like this? This makes the government favor a moral code which is also condemned in D&C 134:9 which expressly states that by "mingling religious INFLUENCE with civil government" we cause the government to "foster" 1 religious society (Christians) and another (homosexuals) are proscribed in its spiritual privileges. A law such as this most certainly "fosters the heterosexual Christian spiritual definition of Marriage" and doesn't foster the homosexual's beliefs of morality. In which case the Church should be involved to PROTECT the individual rights and spiritual privileges, NOT fight them!

You did not say yea yea or nay nay to my question, is the church out of line with the D&C 134. Why or why not?

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There on the books.

It is a civil issue with moral implications, which any entity has a right to influence.
I never said it didn't have any thing to do with morals.

I am not controlling others, they can do any action with each other that they choose. I only want to have some influence on the definition of Marriage. In insisting that the definition of marriage changes they are trying to control the definition. I have that right as well to determine what this should be, as do they. If I do not try, others have the control over this issue, and I am not going to let this happen.

Should I not practice my right to influence government and policy?

Should the Church not have a right to influence society?





Edited: dbackers on 12th Sep, 2008 - 11:37pm

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays

I repeat what I said before:
This is actually a lie from Satan. The lie is, "you had better take their freedom before they take yours!" The funny thing is that the truth of God is, "protect their freedom and you will protect your own." Remember the truth sets you free. By allowing yourself to choose for others, you are in the very act choosing to allow others to choose for you. Guess what others will choose for you...

Do you see, your way is not a win win. Either they define it or you define it. Would you be willing to allow them to have a "Civil Union" with the same civil benifits and rights that heterosexuals have like taxes, estate and laws governing such long term and intermingled relationships? You can have Marriage they can have civil union?

Should I not practice my right to influence government and policy?
Absolutely except when you are trying to limit the freedoms of others by enforcing your moral beliefs. See D&C 134

Should the Church not have a right to influence society?
Yes, again as governed by its own dictates spelled out in D&C 134. This is its own law and the bounds God set for the church. You have still not answered the question, do you think the church is contradicting the revelation given in D&C 134? Why or why not?

LDS Perspective Gay Marriage Mormon Gays - Page 16

No, I do not.

First I do not believe God is ever limited on his ability to confront civic issues.

If I believe this and am being as literal as you are, then the Prophet if he speaks as a Prophet has the authority to speak on civic matters (unless we are saying God does not have that right to speak concerning any issue that he wants.)

134:6

Marriage is a societal institution and is a regulated interest. I am just saying that as long as the government has a vested interest in this institution, it can define it. Therefore anyone entering it must fall within its definition. If we do not want government to define it(requiring a governmental license), we should not make it a governmental institution. If that is what you want, then I could see an argument for if being about freedom of choice. As a societally regulated contract, anything outside of its definition is not valid. Thus the argument that we are having in America.

I don't believe, as your have said, that this is a matter of me not allowing someone to be free. They have as much right in entering the currently defined institution of marriage as I am. There is no freedom that I have or do not have that the other person has or does not have. Therefore no argument could be made that they are being denied a freedom everyone else has.

LDS Perspective Gay Marriage Mormon Gays Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 16

Thank you Dbackers, very good comments.

Anyone else want to answer my questions? Do you think the church is taking actions that are congruant with D&C 134 in relation to the gay marriage amendment?