Related Information to LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays - Page 19

Homosexuality is considered a behavior. Bad behavior influences those around them. Just like good behavior. Kids especially pick up on this "behavior" regardless of what it is.

I can't imagine. We agree on everything else.

I used to believe the same way as everyone else on Homosexual marriage and that they should be able to adopt. I believed in the popular idea that it was no one's business and that we should help them in this way. I have changed my stance on the whole mess.

I didn't say that a society falls because of homosexuality. I said that it is a sign of one about to fall. It is more or less a symptom of a society that is about to fall.

Take Rome for an example. Look at the bible. And I am sure that homosexuality existed in Nephite times. It is the part of the symtomatic equation.

Yah, you see the male genitals are not supposed to go into another man's waste hole. Do I need to send a pic? Every 5th grade in the US has been taught this. Only they are taught that it is alright.

Come on I53 you have got to do better than that. You are reaching.

I like it how people try to compare drinking coffee and tea with gross sexual sins. Again nothing to do with anything other than self destruction.

Would you allow a dealer to deal drugs to your kids or community kids? It is their free agency to do so? No, I would hope you wouldn't. (this is something I know about)

It is not about the adults committing sins. It is about the more precious members of society as I stated before. Those that don't know enough yet to make proper decisions.

I don't care if 2 dudes get together, but no one else should be involved with this. Especially kids.

I would try to bash you on this, but I think I know what you are trying to say.

I don't think that gay couples should be allowed on a macro sense to adopt children. Each individual case is different and should be left to a judge to decide things on a micro level. A judge appointed by the people that will also look in the best interests of the community as a whole. A good heterosexual couple is ideal for a child.

You might want to read the Proclamation to the family.

The next step is if a gay couple should be sealed in the temple? These questions are already starting to come up.

If God doesn't recognize it as a Union then should we? I suppose we know more than him.

Rather off topic, but... Different subject. Big banks and governments have broken our economy and manipulated the peasants. Socialists like Obama that increase the budget that we don't have the resources to pay. That reminds me there is good news for you. Your dictator buddy Obama is in the white house now. He will fix everything. We will all be rioting by next spring.

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Quasar you are right. Thanks for correcting me on this. Out of the 50 states in the union there are three that will not let you adopt based on sexual orientation. Of the other 47 I don't believe that it is even a question that is asked.

It is also considered a genetically determined trait. You can believe that it is a behavior based on environmental conditions if you would like, but then how do you explain how many men and women there are with gay tendencies in the LDS church. If my brother was raised the same way I was why is he gay and I am not? There must be something more to it.

Now I am sure we could both go the rounds on scientific studies and even talks by LDS church leaders that prove one way or the other, but in the end we will both walk away with the same views on the matter. I already went through this once with dbackers. I can appreciate your argument about bringing children into the situation, and I can see how it would concern many LDS members, but the fact of the matter is that if a homosexual wants to adopt a child they are going to be able to do it. An overwhelming majority of states in this nation have no laws to prevent it.

I have heard this argument so many times that it makes me sick. The church has autonomy over its right to perform marriages and to whom. There is no possibly way that a homosexual couple could force the church to seal them in the temple. Now you're reaching. Just because a couple of groups of gay LDS people have petitioned the church in no way means that the church is obligated to placate them.

However, and I say this frequently, if we create a precedent of making laws based on moral opinion there may some day come a time when the majorities morals no longer represent our own. Then it will be our god given right of free-agency that is taken, rather than some other group.

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I think you are missing my other point. It is hard for people to adopt kids if they are single. Most states don't recognize homosexual couples as married, so therefore they will have a hard time adopting kids. But yes it will and does happen. And I believe that many laws will be passed in their favor.

You have to remember that the state has unconstitutional taken over the sanctity of marriage. It is really not the states responsibility to decide who gets married. It is really up to the religion to make decisions on this regard. Separation of church and state. With that in mind anything is possible when it comes to what the state may or may not do for a ceremony it controls.

I know that this is anti government and my previous argument has involved the ideals of the current government, but I don't want to hear it.

I don't know why people go to bat for the other team, but homosexuality is a behavior. I am sure that there are medical reasons beyond my understanding. Maybe it has something to do with media. I think that some are more susceptible than others to it. Just like some are likely to do drugs or fornicate than others. It is all bad.

Alcoholism runs in my family. I drank for over a decade. Ever since high school Up to a few years ago. It is still a bad behavior and one that can be controlled regardless of my genetic profile or my environment.

It is funny that alcoholism fits a lot of the same categories as homosexuality, but in our society alcoholism is considered a disease and homosexuality is not.

Edited: Quasar on 5th Nov, 2008 - 3:49pm

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So which is it Quasar? You can't have it both ways. Either you want the government to define marriage as only between a man and a woman or you want them to stay out of it. Seems like a pretty glaring contradiction to me. You seem to be a proponent of less government, and I can admire that. I would like the government to be less involved in my life as well, and to stop dictating to me what I can and can't do.

As it is right now the government is very involved in the institution of marriage, and I don't see them stepping out of it. For us to dictate that it can only happen between certain types of individuals is a violation of our basic freedoms, in my opinion.

Sure homosexuality is a choice, just like anything anybody does is a choice. You can choose to be heterosexual too. I believe that people are born that way, however I also believe that it is something that they can choose to not pursue. I also believe that if they choose to pursue how they are made that it is not within my realm of responsibility to restrict their freedoms. Just as I would like them to not restrict my freedoms.

This is a basic argument for free agency. Either you believe you should be involved in someone else's decisions or you don't.

I can understand that many people feel that homosexuals should not adopt, however that is a different subject than allowing them to marry. Obviously some homosexuals would make better parents than others, but the same could be said of heterosexuals.

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So then, bobnbrittw, do you believe that the First Presidency did not act under the Lord's direction concerning this matter?

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays

That's a tough question to answer, one that I am struggling with. Remember we are supposed to measure current revelation against the Standard works. I am not certain if this is current revelation or just remarks and promptings based on their interpretation. It seems to me that it must be the latter or we would have voted on it as an assembly and been commanded to do it.

LDS Perspective Gay Marriage Mormon Gays - Page 19

Yes I am a firm believer in separation of church and state and don't think that we would legally be having this problem if that were more the case. Religious institutions are the biggest adversaries to gay marriage and most christian based religions and others are against gay marriage. The government would have easily passed bills that allowed gay marriage, had it not been for the religious communities (voters) hounding them. The gay rights activists are using the government and lawyers for their agenda and not so much religious institutions. Infact, I am trying to think of a main stream religion that promotes homosexual marriages and I can not think of one. There are some spin off homosexual churches? I think that it is more of an argument between religious institutions. I am not 100% sure of how that would work, but perhaps some regulatory actions would be needed by the state. I will have to take a rain check on that one for now.

This communist government knows what they are doing. They know that destroying the family will give them more control and power. Homosexuality is a tool along with some other things.

Marriage means Union. Union to do what? Union to create life. The basic laws of marriage are defined as a union between a man and women. These simply are laws of nature and have everything to do with procreation and replenishing the earth, so that souls from the other side can participate in this test we call life. Heterosexual relationships create life where homosexual relationships do not. Can 2 pistols of a flower "unite" to create life? They are simply natural laws. Homosexuality goes against these basic values and laws of nature and procreation. You wont see gay couples in the celestial kingdom creating souls and spreading light. The same laws that exist there exist here.

And my argument is that recognizing gay marriage has everything to do with the ability to adopt, or atleast the next step. Destroying the family happens a little at a time. Homosexuality and our ignorant tolerance towards it is a tool of satan himself to destroy mankind.

If they are not going to obey the natural laws of God then why should they be rewarded with the fruits of someone elses labor. Literally labor. The ability to adopt should be rewarded by participants in the creation process not by those that fight the natural laws of God. Perhaps a women can define the sacrifice of labor?

If marriage or union is the basic principles for the creation of life then how could a homosexual couple teach this without practising it? Isn't leading by example the best way to teach? Procreation is a big deal to God. It was the first or one of the first laws given by God to Adam and eve.

I think God is more concerned with getting his own kids down here so they can be tested and grow.

Once again bad parenting is a tool of satan to destroy the family. Parents that commit other gross sins are every bit as destructive to the family and society as homosexuality. That is another subject and we are talking specifically about homosexuality.

I believe that people have the right to fight and quarantine this type of destructive behavior in any way possible. There is a much bigger picture that I don't think that we see that perhaps the leaders of the church do.

Edited: Quasar on 6th Nov, 2008 - 4:13pm

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bobnbrittw

I cannot agree with you on this, though I understand your sentiments. I believe those on our side believe this is where this is going, and that is why we are so supportive of these measures (Prop 8).

I will site some real world examples that could lead one to believe that the United States Government as well as the West will force religions to change the way that they operate, and by fiat, force them to do actions that would be against their beliefs.

Source 1

A Catholic Church Charities in Boston decided that they could not continue to offer adoption services because the state would force them to adopt to Homosexual couples

The law was in direct contradiction to the Catholic Churches teachings and it restricted their ability to continue to provide adoption services. This, in my opinion, is the state forcing a religious organization to comply with law in order to provide a religious service (adoption).


And in England a Catholic Agency was forced to close her doors after refusing to adopt to Homosexual couples.
Source 2



Even criticizing Homosexuality in Sweden can result in jail time.

Source 3

Such laws are being considered by the left in our country ( H.R. 254, or the David Ray Hate Crimes Prevention Act) and considering the results of the recent election, such laws may soon be passed easily .

In Canada someone was fined for stating his opposition to homosexuality in a newspaper

Source 4

So, with these examples of religious organizations and individuals facing restrictions based on beliefs, why is it so far fetched to think that Marriage and even Temple Marriage will soon be legislated in some countries (or even our own) where the Church operates?

You must believe, by your comments, that these infringements will never affect our Church's performance of its constitutionally protected religious practices.

I believe that the time is coming when the Church will be forced to perform homosexual marriages or face prosecution (within the next 20 years?) and I base this on the trend to restrict religious freedom if someone declares their opposition to homosexuality.One must have a lot more faith in the United States government and the Secular governments of the west when it comes to this, if they think they are not heading in that direction.

Many of us(I am sure, to my surprise, that Quasar and I are in agreement on this one) do not believe that the Governments of the World are going to be as respectful of religious sentiments as you think they will be.