Related Information to LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays - Page 9

A belief in a divine right of free-agency is something we are taught about at a very young age. I believe that to take away this right from someone else just because I feel that their decision is wrong is like saying that Satan's plan was better.

Rather off topic, but... McKay are you insinuating that I am gay? Wow! I am somewhat surprised that our moderators even allowed that comment as it is so offtopic, not to mention inappropriate. Are we in elementary school again?

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No Sir! Not calling you gay or otherwise. My points are simple, I try not to complicate things because then everyone gets insulted, so here is what I am saying. We have laws to enable those freedoms, just as Heavenly Father has given us laws to enable our ability to return to him. Marriage is an institution set up by God. Lets not get confused into believing that marriage is about the government. Now the equation is simple. Who set up the law, who enables the law and who makes it so that you can obey the law? It is all the same perfect being. Therefore if someone comes along trying to pervert that then I will object to it because as you emphasize I have the agency to do so. I believe this is discussion is about the LDS' perspective on gays and marriage and not the world's. Free agency is given up when you are baptized, you give it to God. So because you are not gay you enjoy the benefits of not being gay, you are sealed in the temple with your wife. Thats my perspective on gay marriage as a member of the church.

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays Studies Doctrine Mormon

Mckay, some interesting points that you bring up, and I would like to address them. As an LDS individual I can tell you that I am opposed to Gay marriage. I find it detestable and in contrast to the eternal plan of salvation as I know it. I know that to indulge in these sins would be in opposition to the convenants that all LDS people make in the temple. So in these aspects I think we can agree.

I think we are not going to agree past that. I don't know if I can agree with you when you say that I give up my free-agency when I am baptised. I still have it, but at the same time I should know what choices to make, and I am more accountable for those decisions than someone who hasn't been baptised or made other covenants, like in the temple.

This is where we definitely do differ. I believe this whole thing is about the government. When we as a people made marriage a legal binding agreement between a man and a woman we brought the government into it. We made it profitable for people to be married. We gave people incentives, like tax breaks and estate benefits.

I believe that marriage is an institution created by God, but it has already been "perverted" to mean much more, and at the same time much less. We know as LDS people what the true institution of marriage is about, we learn about it in the temple. We know that it is about an eternal family, sealed together by the power of the priesthood.

To everyone else it is the ability to show devotion to a single partner. It is also an incentive to earn a better tax break, and be involved in the decision making process for their estate. What right do we have to enjoy, in the very least the financial, aspects of marriage and deny them to someone else? We know that their decision is wrong, but they might not.

Rather off topic, but... Can we feel good about making laws that take away someones free-agency because we know better about how to bring about their salvation than they do?

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So you believe the government should govern your marriage? Marriage was never invented by government, God was the on who decreed marriage and he did not say it should be between a man and a man. There is only one marriage, the other is not recognized by God, it is only recognized by man. Why do you think the Church will not allow a couple who is maried by law to enter the temple until after a long period of time, seems like a punishment right?

As for baptism, Joseph Smith taught that that once you leave the netural plane and decide to follow God you can no long return to a state of neutrality, your baptism is whereyou gave up your ageny to him. Not everyone can comprehend that, one day you might.

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Whether I want it to or not the government, at least in the United States, does govern my marriage. When I married my sweet wife I had to first apply for a marriage license, through the State that I live in. When I file my taxes I have to make the decision to file married filing jointly, or married filed singly. If I want to get a divorce from my wife I have to involve the government also. Interestingly enough I could choose to divorce my wife civilly, but remain sealed to her.

Have I proven my point that there are two different types of marriage? Yes marriage was invented by God, but since then it has also been adopted as a legal bonding agreement between two adults. As an LDS individual I know what marriage means. Other people that are not LDS do not have that perfect understanding. I can know as an LDS person that Gay marriage is wrong, but I also know that I fought in the pre-existence for their right to make mistakes, and to be judged upon them. It is wrong for me to take that away. If you have such a lackadaisical attitude about taking that fought for freedom away from someone else it may prove you well to study the subject a little more.

I think you are mistaking the intent of what Joseph Smith was trying to say. I said it before in my last post, but you must have missed it. I no longer have neutrality, that does not mean I no longer have agency. It means I know better, and my punishment will be more severe for the same sin as someone who has that neutrality. They do not know better because they have not made the same covenants that I have. Thankfully I also know the power of the atonement. Try to remember, there has been only one perfect being. Everyone else has used their free-agency their entire life, making mistakes, and hopefully repenting of them.

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays

Mc Kay:

Keep in mind we are discussing the LDS Perspective on Gay Marriage in GENERAL. We are not discussing about members of the Church who go through same sex attraction and they wish to get married. We know if they engage in homosexual act and try to get married, they will no longer be members of the Church, hence it will not longer be an issue.

What Bob is trying to say (which I personally think makes a lot of sense) is that just because we are members of the Church, we should not impose our views in others. Should we stop people from drinking, smoking, shopping on the Sabbath because that's what we believe? It should not be our intent as members of the Church to make the whole world LDS just because we believe to be true. The Free Agency giving up to God comes into place when a person has an understanding of the covenant they have made with God, how this applies to a non-member?

Personally, I am not into agreement with Gay marriage but as I stated before I do not think we should do anything to stop it.

LDS Perspective Gay Marriage Mormon Gays - Page 9

Bobbnbrittw,

Good thoughts. I find myself agreeing with you. I think you make great points and separate the issues of religious values of right and wrong from legal obligations and rights of everyone. I agree with you. I think that although I do not agree with homosexuality I do feel that there is still are rights and privileges that we discriminate from others. As for my free agency I do not think I gave it up at baptism at 8 years old. Why would God require that I give something so precious that he fought a war in heaven to preserve?

Remember gay marriage is not changing the marriage codes. Gay marriage has been allowed because there is no law to define marriage in most states, that is why state supreme courts are allowing it. That is why laws are being passed defining marriage in states. Thus by banning gay marriage you are having the government define and govern marriage. I think that LDS that support a gay marriage ban are asking marriage to be defined by the government. Because if you ban gay marriage you are allowing the government to define by law what marriage is and will be. If you accept this then you are accepting the governments authority to define marriage and thus you then have to logically agree that polygamy then is not a form of marriage since law states that is is unlawful. This does not seem a logical argument for banning gay marriage particularly for LDS who believe in polygamy.

I really do not see how gay marriage effect our marriages? I do not think that if they allow gay marriage that many LDS men and women will run to them. I think that unwed co-habitation, divorce rates, pre-marital sex are bigger threats to marriage as a whole then gay marriage is. It is these threats that produce single parents broken homes and poverty. I do not see how gay marriage does this. I think we have made them a political scapegoat for our societies marriage problems and has become a red haring to the problem that the manipulative republican party has abused to get power in this nation. (see Ohio in last Bush re-election) Perhaps we are just to scandalized by homosexuality.

LDS Perspective Gay Marriage Mormon Gays Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 9

The government can do what they want it still does not change what marriage is and what it is meant to be. Liberalist thinking with no governance for the people leads to a society of chaos where your children end up asking you if it is okay to be gay. You can respond by saying, sure go ahead its your freedom to do so. I intend to so everything possible to not make these options freely available. With this kind of thinking we will have men marrying animals and material objects just because they can. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.