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Probably not. But all of the other items would - Page 22 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 23rd Jun, 2010 - 12:55pm
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Are Mormons meant to follow blindly? We may say no, but if you disagree what do you do? Pray UNTIL you believe? Should we believe that all that is written and said by the Modern Prophets is correct and infallible? If so, then why do we have to pray about it? Is it for us to believe what they say or really to find out if that is what we ought to be doing? Controversial Mormon Issue.
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The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? - Page 22
Oh okay. I just wanted to make sure that people do not misunderstand what I was trying to say with regards to listening to the Prophets. I agree 100% with your last sentence.
At times, I wonder if maybe it is in my area of the world that I do not hear much about Christ. Last Sunday as an example, I did not hear his name being mentioned at ALL during the whole sacrament meeting and Sunday School but I heard about hundreds of activities and what Elder such and such said. I usually come home very depressed. It is way too often.
Maybe I am turned off seeing how slowly I feel we are pushing away Christ and replacing him with men. I have no problems with Pres. Monson whatsoever, but when I hear people saying we should follow everything he says without questioning because he is a prophet, then I have a problem.
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Post Date: 8th Oct, 2009 - 3:01pm / Post ID: #
Enough That So Prophet Mormon The
OK, this is a really long thread and I'm working through it now but after the first 8 pages I have to say I definitely agree with NightHawk and want to offer a few quotes her.
It's from a post of mine in the white shirts and tie discussion
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This is what the prophets have said about such types of obedience:
President Joseph F. Smith said,
QUOTE "We talk of obedience, but do we require any man or woman to ignorantly obey the counsels that are given? Do the First Presidency require it? No, never."
(Journal of Discources (JD) 16:248)
Apostle Charles W. Penrose, who would later serve as counselor to President Smith, declared:
QUOTE "President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when 'Thus saith the Lord', comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill."
(Millennial Star 54:191)
QUOTE "And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... Would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves."
(Millennial Star, vol.14 #38, pp. 593-95)
QUOTE "President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel [see, for example, verses 9-10: 'If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing...the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him.']...said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church -- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls -- applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall -- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 237-38)
George Q. Cannon, Counselor to three Church Presidents, expressed it thus:
QUOTE "Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone;"
(Millennial Star 53:658-59, quoted in Gospel Truth, 1:319)
QUOTE "I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord."
(Brigham Young, JD 3:45)
QUOTE "...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer."
(Brigham Young, JD 1:312)
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Total obedience to a prophet because he "were not able to lead you astray" is incorrect and contrary to the whole Gospel theory. As far as I have read these posts, I feel the quote from Wilford Woodruff is not understood in the right context.
The history of the gospel show fallen prophets, the Lord warned Joseph Smith himself that he could be removed from his place and loose his gift as prophet and translator. Most prophets have reiterated that until we started hearing things such as
"'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it." which was first taught by Marion G Romney as having been taught by Heber J Grant.
What did Wilford Woodruff mean? Did he override the eternal gospel truth that a prophet is fallible? Joseph Smith adamantly taught that infallibility doctrine comes from the devil himself. So what do we make of the Woodruff quote? First of all, a prophet is a man. We should not trust in the arm of flesh. Joseph Smith in TPJS said that a prophet is not only the voice of the Lord, but also his own. We should not take everything for revelation. He also said that "Unless it cometh by 'Thus saith the Lord' we [speaking of the saints represented by Joseph Smith] do not consider it binding" (I'll look up the page references if you want me too... I'm just at work right now and can't). A prophet still has free agency. He can choose to say whatever he likes, whether it be from the Lord or not.
About being removed from his place: This is very true. The Lord would remove him from his place. But not by death or by making him loose his ecclesiastical position. There is nothing in the scriptures to justify that position. What he will loose is what Joseph Smith would've lost: His status as a prophet of the Lord and His place in Heaven. This is irrelevant from his earthly position. Remember, the church is nothing but a corporate appendage to the priesthood. What is unfailable is the priesthood, not the church. Otherwise all the other churches would've never been able to apostatize and lead millions into darkness. The priesthood can't apostatize, because the priesthood power would be lost and given to another. The legal entity of a church of God will not be dissolved by apostasy. Therefore, it is very important we have our own revelation, and carefully examine what the prophet says and check if it truly is the will of the Lord. If we wish to be exalted, we need to become prophets like Nighthawk already mentioned. Without that, we can never reach our Exaltation. That is something the prophets have always taught, and I do not believe this could change.
But now I'll still read the rest of the thread...
The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon
QUOTE (Apostle Charles W. Penrose)"President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when 'Thus saith the Lord', comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill."
Thanks for that quote! I wish more Members would think and speak like that because it is NOT what is taught today. The more I study these things the more I feel like the Church of Joseph's time and the Church today are two VERY DIFFERENT things.
QUOTE (OldSouth)Total obedience to a prophet because he "were not able to lead you astray" is incorrect and contrary to the whole Gospel theory.
However, based on what you said then this means that the current Church leadership and system is also incorrect and therefore not true. This is another element of those who search deeper about these things that I do not understand. On one hand you say it is incorrect but yet still attend Church each Sunday following something that is incorrect? Does that make any sense?
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There certainly are things out of order in the Church today. However, even with errors in it, there is still lots of good stuff, and good people. There is still much to learn within it. If I ever found somewhere that the Lord told me the Presidency of the High Priesthood resided, I would go there. Until then, I will stay where I am.
I will continue to attend church until the Lord tells me somewhere else to go, or He puts forth His hand to set it in order, then tells me which remnant that is left is the one He wants me to attend.
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QUOTE (Nighthawk)However, even with errors in it, there is still lots of good stuff, and good people.
The same could be said of your local Lions Club, or the Born Again Christian church nearby. You may even find more genuine people there who give service and help others without thinking if it will count as a 'visit' for the month. My point is that the Church does not teach what you just said, in fact it is very against that line of thinking and will label it as apostasy. The Church no longer allows you to think freely and then discuss what you are thinking unless you are prepared to met the consequences of the local leadership. I find that hard to take because it is not the picture of the Church we use as a means to convert people. Just think back to when you were a missionary. How much are people really told about what they are getting into? The Prophet said so... We must accept it is what we are told. The irronic point is that each Prophet as a few decades go by seems to steer things in a different direction to the point that you have to wonder who is the captain.
The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?
I've had to think about this for few days. I find it very difficult to explain how I view the subject of staying active while having so many doubts.
There are a fairly long list of reasons, so I will try to cover the biggest ones.
* I still see a lot of miracles happening regarding missionary work, genealogy, and temple ordinances. This strongly indicates to me that while the majority of the church may be believing and teaching some false doctrines, the Lord has not abandoned us.
* When Lehi saw all of his friends and relatives, and his beloved city of Jerusalem, embracing apostasy, he did not abandon it until told to by the Lord.
* I strongly believe in a "setting in order" that will come, when the Lord brings someone to the Church and cleans it up. There will be a remnant who are looking for this, and looking to follow the Lord, not a man. This righteous remnant will come out of the Church, not in to it from outside. I want to be part of this remnant.
* I believe in the power and authority of the Priesthood.
* If I left the Church, it would be devastating to my family. I already have one son who has completely rejected the Church, all religion, and God. I do not want to be the source of more.
The Mormon Prophet So That Enough - Page 22
Nighthawk:
QUOTE * If I left the Church, it would be devastating to my family. I already have one son who has completely rejected the Church, all religion, and God. I do not want to be the source of more.
If you found the Church falling into Apostasy and no longer feel this is the True Church (supposing) would you still stay for your family's sake?
The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 22
Probably not. But all of the other items would have to be overcome first. The Lord would have to guide me to make a change. Not saying that couldn't happen, though, as I know of many other people who have testimonies that they have been led to other places.
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