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The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? - Page 9

This may seem so simple... but it is true: We have a living Prophet and when speaking in that capacity from his lips also comes scripture. For you to know if it be true or not is up to you, but it does not change what it is... if you have found something that one of our modern day Prophets have said that is out of sync with the recorded word then I would like for you to share it with us and we can discuss it.

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Please explain to me how this two quotes don't contradict each other. I am sincerely trying to understand your position regarding Brigham's statement, but so far it seems like double-talk to me.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon

I think I'll jump in here. (Big surprise, right???)

I was just shown some very interesting information about Elder Richard G. Scott. Based on this, I have started looking for his talks that are available. They are extremely enlightening on this subject.

In the Layton Northridge Stake, in May 1992, he gave a talk. The gist of it is contained in this statement:

Also:

At the moment, I am reading the book Spiritual Progression in the Last Days by Blaine Yorgason. In it, he has some extremely interesting information, including 7 levels of spiritual progression.
1. Enemy to God
2. Stranger and foreigner
3. Fellow citizen with the Saints (members, not very active)
4. Servant or handmaiden of God (active members, hold callings, serve)
5. Son or daughter of Jesus Christ (experienced baptism of the Holy Ghost, mighty change of heart, adopted into the family of Christ)
6. Elect of God (after becoming sons and daughters, "hear (the Lord's) voice and harden not their hearts" (D&C 29:7, D&C 33:6); have pressed forward no matter the opposition)
7. Joint heirs with Jesus Christ (Calling and Election made sure)

Each of us must move along this continuum, on our own. The purpose of the Church is to help us move along it. Most Latter-day Saints seem to stop at the 4th level. Joseph Smith taught that it is up to us how far we go, but that most of us, including angels, will "set up stakes" or personal limitations and say, "I cannot go any further." Which is a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Words of Joseph Smith, pp. 244-47, 256)

The more I study, especially concerning the Last Days, the more sure I am that if we insist on "following the Prophet" without first getting confirmation of every point, the more likely we are to suffer some very intense personal tribulations.

NightHawk

Page 9 Enough That So Prophet Mormon The

I agree 100% with this statement. I just happen to believe if the prophet counsels us to do something or act a particular way in his capacity as prophet, we will get confirmation of it, not be told otherwise. I don't believe the prophet will be allowed to lead us astray. In other words, if he were to intentionally attempt to do so, he would be removed. If he counselled us in error, through his human traits, I believe the Lord would chasten or correct him and he would then correct his position.

This doesn't mean I follow blindly. If I have difficulty with something the prophet teaches, I should pray about it, maybe fast, etc. The Lord will then confirm it to me specifically. I just don't think I need to do this for every thing he says. Only if I have difficulty with what he says or I am uncomfortable about it. However, I also believe I must be honestly seeking confirmation, and not kidding myself about my motives.

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Good post Nighthawk, and of course I am not surprised that you are in it again I agree with all that you said but I must say... you folks must be around some 'strange' members if you feel the need to emphasize all the time that you have to gain your own testimony of truth rather than follow blindly. I will mention that we must remember that everyone joins the Church for a different reason and so when they have joined without the Spirit, to them their only source of truth is what they hear or see. Recently my wife and I were talking about how most members look at the face value of everything... they see the education, wealth and look of a member rather the spirit of the same, but that is another thread.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?

Obviously you don't have a lot of experience with "Zion" in Utah, and the Intermountain West. Even here, in Michigan, the general attitude is one of "follow the Prophet" with no thought whatsoever. Most members, in my experience, wouldn't consider checking with the Lord on anything that the Prophet has said. And this leads to a lot of confusion, and even false doctrine being taught.

I will give a couple of examples.

One of the most commonly cited books, for many years, was Mormon Doctrine. Since the author of the book was an Apostle, obviously the book was entirely correct. I am not kidding, people would look to this book before even considering going to the Book of Mormon. All this despite the fact that the book was written and published BEFORE Elder McConkie was called as a General Authority. All this despite the fact that the First Presidency seriously considered asking him to stop the publication of the book because of the many errors in doctrine. Eventually they decided to let it go, because to ask him to withdraw it from publication would hurt his reputation so much that they would not be able to have him serve in any public capacity, and he was a tremendous scholar and speaker.

Another example is seen in our discussion on R-rated movies. As has been shown there, no Prophet or Apostle has EVER counseled adult members not to watch R-rated movies - as a class. Be careful in what we watch, absolutely. Even pray about going to see a movie that might be marginal. Yet many members refuse to consider a movie, purely based on its rating. There is nothing wrong with that, if that is their choice, but they then turn and teach it as doctrine, which it isn't.

Finally, in my opinion, during the Last Days, there will be a major split in the Church. There will be at least three factions, probably along the lines of:
1. Those who claim a "legal" right to the Church
2. Those who claim an "intellectual" guidance of the Church
3. A small group who trust entirely to the Spirit. They will "follow" a prophet who is entirely unacceptable to the other two groups.

Anyone who rests on the idea of "follow the Prophet" will join one of the first two groups.

Remember what I wrote about Elder Scott's address. He also pointed out this type of followership among members. In Brother Yorgasson's list of levels, followership essentially stops at level 4. Anything beyond that requires real growth that comes from stepping beyond following.

NightHawk

Edited: Nighthawk on 26th Mar, 2004 - 5:32pm

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough - Page 9

I think I will start a thread (look for it later) about the outward and inward. Concerning your fellow Borthers and Sisters in Michigan - I am familiar with this kind of 'mormony' thinking, however, we do not have that here at all, we have all the opposite... members do not even want to follow the most basic stuff let alone even know what is a book called, 'Mormon Doctrine' or if we need to pray about what the Prophet says hence my curiosity for your emphasis on this, I guess our environment leads the basis for our interest in this thread. The most important thing I understand about the Church is this... it has been set up so the 'least' member who can just about be as obedient as possible can return to live with Heavenly Father, in other words, they just need a 'C' to pass, if anyone else wants to fly thorugh with an 'A' so be it, but it is not required.

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 9

Now, I disagree with this very much. I will agree, up to the point of attaining a high level in the Terrestial Kingdom. Thus, a "level 4" member is (IMHO) almost assured of a high Terrestial inheritance.

However, to attain exaltation within the Celestial Kingdom requires a "level 7" type of person. Obviously, if I am living a level 4 life now, and realize (as I have recently) that I need to live a level 7 life, and begin to sincerely repent and change, but die in a car accident on the way home from Church, perhaps I have a chance to continue on to exaltation. But if I just coast on as a level 4, 5, or 6, and don't earnestly strive to improve during this probation, then I will be stuck where I am. Now, obviously, these "levels" aren't doctrinal, or relate specifically to any type of resurrection, they are just easy ways for us to relate to the types of behaviour that we each do and can engage in. However, they do show, quite clearly, how much we really do need to be aware of our own responsibility concerning our salvation and exaltation.

NightHawk