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Changes In Mormon Doctrine And Practice - Page 6

Nighthawk
I need some clarification before I am able to proceed.

When exactly do you believe that the church went astray ?

Was the Church, the church of Christ only under Joseph Smith, and then it became apostate under Brigham Young, or did it become apostate at some later date, or is it still the Church of Christ?

Do you believe the current Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is an apostate version of the original Restoration Church, or is it like the Church during the time of Moses, a church that is living a lower law but one that is still under the direction of God?

Do you believe the endowment as given first to Joseph Smith was an exact replica of the endowment given to Adam when he left the Garden? Do you think from the time he first introduced it, that it remained the same under his direction without change?

Is a suspension of the Practice of a Doctrine, a change in the doctrine?

Practice Doctrine Mormon Changes

I don't have an exact time that the Church went astray. I suspect that it began to degrade after Joseph Smith's death.

I have never asserted that the Church is apostate, only that it is in a degree of apostasy. So far as I can determine, we have met every condition that Brigham Young said would be a sign of the church going into apostasy.

It appears to me that we, the Church, have decided to live a lower law. When President Grant began to actively persecute people who chose to continue to live plural marriage, I believe that the Church lost a tremendous spiritual gift.

No, I don't believe that the Endowment was perfect and complete under Joseph Smith, since he told Brigham Young that he (Brigham) needed to work on it. However, I don't think it is improved by removing vital portions in order to please the World.

Is suspension of a practice the same as a change in doctrine? Depends. Is there a revelation given specifically forbidding the practice? If so, where? There is ample documentation of the establishment of the practice, as well as multiple prophetic announcements that abandonment would equal apostasy. Finally, we have multiple recent statements that belief in continuance of the practice is false and damnable. We also have multiple recent statements that previous principles taught as doctrine is false. So, if you are talking about plural marriage, then yes, suspension of practice, the way it was done, equals change of doctrine. And, claims by Prophets and Apostles over the last 40 years that the Adam-God doctrine is false indicates change in doctrine.

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If what you are proposing is true, (that the church is in a degree of Apostasy) would that not require that we take the oaths that have remained that much more seriously then we do rather then abandon them altogether.

Even though the Children of Israel were living under a lower law, they were required to live the law that they were given, until they could be prepared to live a higher law. They were not justified in ignoring the law that they had been given just because it was not the higher law, and I believe we would not be justified in ignoring temple covenants because we do not believe them to be perfect.

I think under your theory the Church has always under some degree of Apostasy, in all ages. It seems that the only perfect church, with perfect individuals and without the influence of the society which it is found, will only be in the celestial Kingdom.

I must take the opposite view of the endowment and the changes that have been instituted, primarily based on my opinion that the Gospel is at its best when its at its most simplest.

I am of the opinion that the changes to the endowment over the years have brought it closer to the way God intends our oaths and covenants to be; simple and direct without embellishment. The endowment, in my opinion, was imperfect when it was initially introduced (and it still is ), with the cultural influence of the masonic order and the 19th century sensibilities of making oaths that were embellished, with dire consequences to those who broke those oaths. But I believe that the Endowment as given by God has always been the best way for us to draw closer to God in this life, regardless of its imperfections (imperfections that were a result of imperfect language and imperfect people who were receiving the endowment).

I will quote the following scriptures to back up my belief.

I would propose that the endowment as it now stands is more inline with these scriptures then they were when Joseph Smith was the Prophet, that God has been moving to a more concise form of the endowment to get to the core of its meaning. Simple oaths and covenants, that deal directly with the basic doctrines espoused in the endowment, seem to me to be more beneficial to mankind then a long drawn out presentation (that involve more then Yea and nay) that does not focus on the doctrines of salvation.

I think this discussion is weighted heavily on ones perceptions of how the Gospel is presented.

I may be wrong on this and correct me if I am: I believe that God patterns his message around the people that he gives it to(only in how it is presented, not the doctrine behind the presentation), and it seems that you believe that he will give the same message, unaltered, to all people, at all times. This seems to be where our disagreement lies.

Rather off topic, but... Plural Marriage is a topic I would have to discuss in that thread, as it is pretty heavy topic itself.

Page 6 Practice Doctrine Mormon Changes

It is quite evident that the Church that Joseph started, the one that existed just after Brigham, the one led by David O. McKay and the one we experience today are all very different from each other in policy, accepted Doctrines and so forth. What I have noticed is more people are becoming aware of this but a very few are willing to do anything or say anything about it. They are either afraid, too comfortable or unsure of the ramifications of speaking out about it.

Practice Doctrine Mormon Changes

Name: Stacy
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Comments: The church is changing a lot but I don't think its the doctrine that is changing but just policies with how things run. The church is getting bigger and needs different laws to run it in 2012 compared with 1890 or 1920.