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Name: Rob Country: Comments: In the April, - Page 2 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 25th Apr, 2011 - 3:09am
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Post Date: 25th Feb, 2007 - 12:38pm / Post ID: #
Which was the Greater Torment? - Page 2
I used to think Gethsemane was worse than Calvary, just because growing up so much emphasis was always put on it in Church lessons and whatnot. However...
In "Jesus the Christ," on page 661, Elder Talmage suggests that all the agony of Gethsemane recurred on the cross. If this is true, Calvary would have included the agony of Gethsemane plus the misery of crucifixion plus being left alone with no angelic or heavenly ministration to ease Christ's suffering.
In the LDS Church, we always put so much emphasis on Gethsemane, but I think Calvary is forgotten and in my mind, it is the climax. The animal sacrifices in the Law of Moses only had cleansing power once they had been killed and their blood was shed. Christ died on the cross, not in Gethsemane. I view Gethsemane as a warm-up to Calvary, since Jesus had an angel to comfort him in the garden, and the scriptures are explicit that the atonement was achieved without any outside aid or help (see Isaiah 63:3; D&C 133:50). 
Edited: OneWhoServes on 25th Feb, 2007 - 12:42pm
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Torment Greater was Which
Good points, however I do not know for sure if he suffered a 'second Gethsemane' as it were. Is the book Jesus the Christ accurate scripture? An exact account of his trial? Were it a 'second Gethsemane' then yes, I can agree that the cross was twice as terrible along with the points mention in the starting Post?
Which was the Greater Torment? Studies Doctrine Mormon
OneWhoServes said:
| QUOTE |
| In "Jesus the Christ," on page 661, Elder Talmage suggests that all the agony of Gethsemane recurred on the cross. If this is true, Calvary would have included the agony of Gethsemane plus the misery of crucifixion plus being left alone with no angelic or heavenly ministration to ease Christ's suffering. |
This is the part that Elder Talmage talks about:
| QUOTE |
| "It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in most terrible reality. That the supreme sacrifice of the Son might be consummated in all its fullness, the Father seems to have withdrawn the support of His immediate Presence, leaving to the Savior of men the glory of complete victory over the forces of sin and death." (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 661.) |
This is what Elder Mc Conkie had to say:
| QUOTE |
| "Where and under what circumstances was the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God made? Was it on the Cross of Calvary or in the Garden of Gethsemane? It is to the Cross of Christ that most Christians look when centering their attention upon the infinite and eternal atonement. And certainly the sacrifice of our Lord was completed when he was lifted up by men; also, that part of his life and suffering is more dramatic and, perhaps, more soul stirring. But in reality the pain and suffering, the triumph and grandeur, of the atonement took place primarily in Gethsemane. "It was there Jesus took upon himself the sins of the world on conditions of repentance. It was there he suffered beyond human power to endure. It was there he sweat great drops of blood from every pore. It was there his anguish was so great he fain would have let the bitter cup pass. It was there he made the final choice to follow the will of the Father. It was there that an angel from heaven came to strengthen him in his greatest trial. Many have been crucified and the torment and pain is extreme. But only one, and he the Man who had God as his Father, has bowed beneath the burden of grief and sorrow that lay upon him in that awful night, that night in which he descended below all things as he prepared himself to rise above them all." (McConkie, DNTC, 1:774-75.) |
And this is what Elder Talmage has to say about the experience in the Garden of Gethsemane:
| QUOTE |
| "Christ's agony in the garden is unfathomable by the finite mind, both as to intensity and cause. The thought that He suffered through fear of death is untenable. Death to Him was preliminary to resurrection and triumphal return to the Father from whom He had come, and to a state of glory even beyond what He had before possessed; and, moreover, it is within His power to lay down His life voluntarily. He struggled and groaned under a burden such as no other being who has lived on earth might even conceive as possible. It was not physical pain, nor mental anguish alone, that caused Him to suffer such torture as to produce an extrusion of blood from every pore; but a spiritual agony of soul such as only God was capable of experiencing. No other man, however great his powers of physical or mental endurance, could have suffered so; for his human organism would have succumbed, and syncope would have produced unconsciousness and welcome oblivion. In that hour of anguish Christ met and overcame all the horrors that Satan, 'the prince of this world" could inflict. The frightful struggle incident to the temptations immediately following the Lord's baptism was surpassed and overshadowed by this supreme contest with the powers of evil. "In some manner, actual and terribly real though to man incomprehensible, the Savior took upon Himself the burden of the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world."Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 613.) |
It seems to me that these descriptions show that indeed the suffering in the Garden surpasses the one in the cross.
Thoughts?
Post Date: 26th Feb, 2007 - 12:36am / Post ID: #
Page 2 Torment Greater was Which
Excellent points both of you, especially thank you LDS_forever for the insightful quotes.
I suppose my beliefs come down to a personal conviction based on my own interpretation of the scriptures. I don't intend anyone else to believe or interpret as I do.
For me, the atonement had to be accomplished without any outside aid or help. Otherwise, Jesus would not have the absolute right to ask for mercy for his sake alone. As I said, there are scriptures in Isaiah and the D&C which explicitly state, from Christ's own mouth, that he accomplished the atonement by himself.
Yet there was an angel sent to comfort him in Gethsemane. He was surely not alone in that instance. I'm not saying Gethsemane wasn't part of the atonement. It definitely was. Bleeding from every pore was not merely like a runner stretching before running a marathon...it was a serious affair to be sure. But Christ wasn't alone. The only time he was explicitly shown to be alone was on the cross, when he cried out and asked our Father why He had "forsaken" him.
I view Gethsemane as the place where Christ suffered all the pains and sicknesses and emotional/mental/physical agonies that any of us can and will endure during mortality. I don't think this had to be done as part of saving us from sin, I think it was above and beyond the "call of duty," an extra step Christ took so he could understand all of us perfectly (see 2 Ne. 9:21; Mosiah 3:7; Alma 7:11; D&C 88:6). In fact, Mosiah 3:7 links Christ's suffering our pains and temptations to his bleeding in Gethsemane...it doesn't link Christ's bleeding from every poor to his "paying the price" for our sins.
That is another matter, however, as I don't think Christ took our spiritual whippings for our individual sins. I explain my views in the thread titled "Of the atonement, mercy, justice and suffering."
In the Law of Moses, the sacrificial animals were meant to cleanse Israel of sin. But the High Priest didn't make the lamb or bullock suffer in place of the sinner. That is, if a lamb was sacrificed to save an adulterer, the High Priest didn't punish the lamb in the adulterer's place by stoning it. He simply spilled it's blood and it was this ending of the lamb's life that provided the necessary sacrifice for sin.
Torment Greater was Which
I personally think that the suffering on the cross was the main point of suffering. The gospel writers and John do not put much stress on the garden. There has to be a reason why they felt that the cross deserved more attention, and it is written as the climatic event in the gospels. Perhaps they saw it as the most important event of the gospels. With that said just because they were it as the most important episode of the atonement does not mean it was the most painful. I guess it is just my personal conviction.
Which was the Greater Torment?
| QUOTE (Isiah53) |
| The gospel writers and John do not put much stress on the garden. |
...Probably because they were all sleeping through his torment? That may sound sarcastic, but really is not - three times he came and found them sleeping. How can they truly document something they were not a part of?
Post Date: 25th Apr, 2011 - 3:09am / Post ID: #
Which was Greater Torment - Page 2
Name: Rob
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Comments: In the April, 2006 Ensign article, "From the Garden to the Empty Tomb", Elder Talmage is quoted again saying that the "agony of Gethsemane had recurred," while Christ was on the cross. Having it quoted in an official Church publication is good enough for me to call it scripture.
TOPIC: Which was the Greater Torment?