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Lds Libertarian?

I used to often wonder why members are so divided in their political point of view. They agree on the Gospel, but yet they seem to disagree when it comes to who should be in government. Could it be that they separate their ability to think clearly in political matters? When I read about how Capt. Moroni defended Truth and Liberty I often wonder how many of us actually digested what he did and how he did it. No, not the fighting part, I am talking about standing up for what is right.

Now it is important to note that this thread is NOT about the US elections, we already have the LDS Democrat thread and the International Board for that, this thread is about how we decide who should run our country and what do we do about those people that affect our everyday rights. In other words, are we just complacent fools that just give in to the majority or do we really pray, study and ask for guidance in electing officials and or defending our rights from the evil men who seek for power.

Now, this is nothing new, in fact this month's First Presidency message actually indicates that we are to look for the due process of making our minds known so that we can stop evil from taking over society.

Libertarian Lds

JB didst write:

Something I have often thought about too. I've heard a lot of members put down certain Church leaders because they thought them "paranoid" or "too extreme", and so forth.

Brigham Young once said that the Father and the Son were both united in their political views and financial operations - and that so we should and all Christians be likewise united if we wish to become as they are (I paraphrase).

When we deal with politics we are dealing with very fundamental and supernally vital issues - the very issues that caused the War in Heaven. So is it any surprise that those schizms are reflected here in this earth and that it still looms over us as the most debated issue?

That issue is of course agency. Freedom enables us to put that agency into action in the physical world, and the tool for doing that is property. Hence the right to own and control property (which includes the property of our own bodies) is such a fought-over matter (and hence collectvism being, as one prophet put it, the "greatest Satanical threat" to our freedom).

It is interesting that Joseph Smith wrote that it is the disposition of *nearly all* men to exercise unrighteous dominion.

I gathered some key thoughts on why members (and people generally) have different perspectives and put them in an article:

https://www.ldsfreedomportal.net/agency.htm

That was a while ago and there are some things in there not quite as I would like but I've not had time to go back and edit ;( One of them is that I have not drawn a distinction between agency and freedom though of course both are needful to fulfil our Father's Plan.

I could say much more but I do not have an exact feel for what this thread is about yet, so shall refrain.

Dubhdara.

Lds Libertarian? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Well, you certainly said a lot even without the feel for the topic, but you are correct in that I focused on what the thread is not, but I should have emphasized for what it should be used or the main subject. Since we are in the LDS Deep Doctrine Board my angle on this was what use of the Gospel and Spirit comes into play when making decisions about an individual's choice for government, hence this question:

They agree on the Gospel, but yet they seem to disagree when it comes to who should be in government. Could it be that they separate their ability to think clearly in political matters?

Now. I know of persons who have told me in the past that the Brethren vote for Republicans, so it must be the correct thing to do. Not being a US Citizen it does not mean much to me, but if I were I would laugh because it is almost like saying the Brethren wear blue shirts on Tuesdays and so will I because it must be right.

The other part I am getting at is this... Are members generally complacent about things around them because they become so 'Churchy' that they cannot beware of Evils? Especially if a man conspires to do evil?

Libertarian Lds

I shall try to explain this without sounding judgemental

It seems to me that whether a person grows up in the Church or is converted there is a tendency to review and reflect upon one's morals and religious beliefs. That is understandable and, I suppose, obvious.

However, there seems less cognizance of the need to also reflect and review upon "other subjects" such as politics, education, science, etc. In other words, there seems to be a lack of ability in us to translate the principles of the gospel into (say) political terms.

Does this come from lack of thought, from strong cultural indoctrination? Yes, probably both.

It is a process too; our whole mind and view does not change overnight.

Too "churchy" you say? Well, yes I think some people think the Gospel means being Church-centered; but the gospel and the cause of zion are far more embracing than the purely ecclesiastical, in my humble view.

I also notice that LDS have a tendency to trust worldly authorities because we are taught to be respectful. This is very sad, the devil has promoted a great deal of falsehood in our time so much so that, I would submit, the prevailing ideas in just about all subjects of importance are his ideas; but many LDS accept them because those authorities have legal and social prestige.

Sometimes it seems those most involved in being "churchy" are the most easily led astray as to their views on what is going on in the world. Spirituality is defined differently by all of us I guess; I once thought it meant being "churchy" but it is not. Of course, doing our duty and magnifying our callings are good things and needful but we must have balance - we must serve the Lord with not just our hands and heart but also with our minds. The gospel is about truth and liberty and covers a panorama that is so hard for many of us to see.

I could waffle on for ages about this.


Dubhdara.

Libertarian Lds

Yes, I agree, and maybe that is why the Brethren have been making a lot of mention of approaching government about the things we are not happy with, also reading good materials that helps us to know the world around us:

First Presidency Message (Quoted in part)

In Opposition to Evil - Ensign, September 2004
By President Gordon B. Hinckley

Now my third point of beginning: The building of public sentiment begins with a few earnest voices. I am not one to advocate shouting defiantly or shaking fists and issuing threats in the faces of legislators. But I am one who believes that we should earnestly and sincerely and positively express our convictions to those given the heavy responsibility of making and enforcing our laws. The sad fact is that the minority who call for greater liberalization, who peddle and devour pornography, who encourage and feed on licentious display make their voices heard until those in our legislatures may come to believe that what they say represents the will of the majority. We are not likely to get that which we do not speak up for. Let our voices be heard. I hope they will not be shrill voices, but I hope we shall speak with such conviction that those to whom we speak shall know of the strength of our feeling and the sincerity of our effort. Remarkable consequences often flow from a well-written letter and a postage stamp. Remarkable results come of quiet conversation with those who carry heavy responsibilities.

Declared the Lord to this people:

"Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great.

"Behold, the Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind" (D&C 64:33-34).

This is the essence of the matter-"the heart and a willing mind." Speak to those who enact the regulations, the statutes, and the laws-those in government on local, state, and national levels and those who occupy positions of responsibility as administrators of our schools. Of course, there will be some who will slam the door, some who will scoff. Discouragement may come. It has always been thus. Edmund Burke, speaking on the floor of the House of Commons in 1783, declared concerning the advocate of an unpopular cause:

"He well knows what snares are spread about his path. . . . He is traduced and abused for his supposed motives. He will remember that obloquy is a necessary ingredient in the composition of all true glory: he will remember . . . that calumny and abuse are essential parts of triumph." 2

The Apostle Paul, in his defense before Agrippa, gave an account of his miraculous conversion while on the way to Damascus, declaring that the voice of the Lord commanded him to "rise, and stand upon thy feet" (Acts 26:16). I think the Lord would say to us, "Rise, and stand upon thy feet, and speak up for truth and goodness and decency and virtue."

Finally, my fourth point of beginning: Strength to do battle begins with enlisting the strength of God.

He is the source of all true power.

Declared Paul to the Ephesians:

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand" (Ephesians 6:10-13).

Lds Libertarian?

There are a lot of good points in this discussion. I tend to agree that many of us in the Church are very complacent about liberty. We tend to think that since we believe something is 'wrong' that we should legislate against it. I also think that this is why so many members of the church are so very conservative.

In Utah, where, of course, the politics are heavily influenced by Mormons, there are some of the most restrictive laws in the US, on a wide variety of subjects.

One of my favorite examples is the fact that the state of Utah encouraged farmers in the Moab area (out in the desert, between Arches National Park and Canyonlands National Park) to build vineyards. It seems that agriculture wasn't working out very well out there, but it appears to be extremely good for vineyards.

So, various vineyards were built up there. They turned out magnificently. I have heard that their wines are better than most Napa Valley wines (which many people claim are better than French or German wines).

However, when the vineyards went to sell their product, the state turned around and forbid it. They can only sell in one or two shops right in Moab, and a very limited number of state liquor stores. They can't export out of the state. They can't set up another wine shop in Park City.

You may ask how this applies to this subject. Well, consumption of wine by an adult is NOT illegal in the state of Utah. Yet these people who have been industrious and are creating a product in demand are halted in their liberty to profit from their labors by the restrictive laws passed by Mormons.

Another example that happened while we lived in Utah was that a state representative sponsored a law to make certain acts between a man and woman, married or unmarried, criminal. If I rememer right, these weren't really kinky things, but they offended the sensibilities of some people.

The bill was eventually defeated, not because of lack of support, but rather because someone pointed out that the law would most definitely fail the test of the courts, as it was patently unconstitutional. Yet a lot of people (Mormons) were very upset that it failed. It was a blatant attack against liberty, yet many Mormons were thrilled with the idea.

It is my opinion that unrighteousness can only successfully be fought by the proper instruction in, and application of, Gospel principles. Passing laws against things, even if they are enforceable, usually doesn't help much. They are attacks against liberty, and people tend to reject such unrighteous dominion, and may even get involved in the unlawful behaviour just to see what all the fuss is about.

Lds Libertarian

Maybe the thinking is that liberty is only good when it conforms to the Gospel's standards or percieved standards? When the new world Government comes I wonder if all laws will be based on the Gospel standards or if people will still have a form of liberty that allows them to do things that would be against Gospel standards?

Lds Libertarian Mormon Doctrine Studies

I think that when the Prophets and leaders tell us about standing for what we believe to be right and being involved in political matters, specially on those issues that go against Gospel standards, it is NOT (in my humble opinion) with the hope that they (Government) may actually change it because of our letters or demonstrations, it is more for us....to not sit down comfortably in the couch doing nothing while crazy laws are being passed and we are just complaining in the comfort of our home and saying 'What a terrible thing!, oh well....anyhow...'. Know what I mean?.
Now regards to the Brethren, whether they vote for the Republicans or Democrats, it doesn't affect me in any way, even if I was living in the US. I do not have to trust the Brethren in their choices about political matters, it is my personal choice to whom I want to vote. Sometimes it concerns me the mentality of some members that everything that a general authority does is good....to be honest with you, it sounds so scary. For some reason, some people think they are closer to God than anybody else on Earth. Don't take me wrong, I respect them and listen to their counsel in spiritual matters but come on, if they think that Burger King makes better fries than Mc Donalds, I'm not going to buy from Burger King just because they think so!. Those matters as political matters in my opinion, are not related with my spirituality. Hence, the Church officially do not stand by any political party.