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Lds Collectivist?

Should a Latter-day Saint support collectivism (communism/socialism/welfarism/social democracy/communalism, et. al.)?



Dubhdara.

Edited: dubhdara on 1st Oct, 2004 - 8:34am

Collectivist Lds

Well based on your list above the Brethren counsel us not to indirectly through their speeches, but at the same time they say (in modern times) we need to make up our own minds about it. I think the question would be, is it 'sin' to support such groups knowing what they try to promote as in the example of communism. If it is not sin, then we can merely be accountable only for those things that we promote that are directly against Gospel principles in my opinion.

Lds Collectivist? Studies Doctrine Mormon

As all political collectivism is founded upon the practise of taking property by force, is it not then true to say this is in direct opposition to the gospel which teaches "thou shalt not steal"?

Is it therefore appropriate that LDS should support such things as state education, nationalised transport, socialized medicine, or the welfare state in general? Are there any statements in the scriptures or made by Church leaders that would give guidance on this matter and, if so, do we as LDS follow it or even accept it?

Dubhdara.

Collectivist Lds

Well, like I said before, there is one counsel given during 'olden times' and then there is counsel given now. Here is a practical example: George Albert Smith basically called the Dole an evil and welfare systems should be abolished. I remember when the CHurch would say that the order of help would be like this: Self, Family, Friends, Church, and Government last. Now, and I know this for a fact, at least within this region, the word is... Self, Family, Friends, Government, and Church is set as the last resort. In fact members are now counseled to seek for Government help before coming to the Church. Isn't that a form of promotion of these welfare services that come from tax payers? I believe the world is so full of confusion and frustration and mass numbers seeking help that the Church cannot feed everyone or help everyone.

Collectivist Lds

With that sense, Democrats are in the same bag too and I can mention other things about the Republicans and of every political party in this world. Now, I'm not saying is right, all I'm saying is that with that reasoning, every person that is part of a political group is indeed committing 'sin' and I do not think so.

Just one out of many....

"We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America. The proponents thereof are seeking to undermine our own form of government and to set up instead one of the forms of dictatorships now flourishing in other lands. These revolutionists are using a technique that is as old as the human race-a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate over whom they thus gain mastery and then enslave them.

They suit their approaches to the particular group they seek to deceive. Among the Latter-day Saints they speak of their philosophy and their plans under it as an ushering in of the United Order. Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan. Communism debases the individual and makes him the enslaved tool of the state to whom he must look for sustenance and religion; the United Order exalts the individual, leaves him his property, "according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs," (D&C 51:3) and provides a system by which he helps care for his less fortunate brethren; the United Order leaves every man free to choose his own religion as his conscience directs. Communism destroys man's God-given free agency; the United Order glorifies it. Latter-day Saints can not be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet. ".

( First Presidency Message, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942 )

The whole article here:

https://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,4889-1,00.html


Edited: LDS_forever on 1st Oct, 2004 - 1:02pm

Lds Collectivist?

Of course, sin is knowingly doing something wrong and many today, like Lamanites of old, simply follow the false traditions of their fathers. But I do believe you are right in saying they are all in "the same bag". Nearly every last one of our leaders and politicians today have been subverted into supporting - knowlingly or not - that which is wrong and flawed.

Church leaders have told us that Gadianton Robbers sit on the seats of virtually every government in the world (this was so stated by Bruce R. McConkie in 1980 and echoed by Elder Wirthlin in about 1994). If we look at the Nephite record we find that these Robbers (aptly named) got into office so that, among other things, they might more easily steal (Helaman 7:5).

What was the philosophy of these Robbers? It was a form of collectivism (see 3 Nephi 3:7) and - take note - here is how the Nephites were seduced into it:

Regarding this scripture, one General Authority said "It appears that they used the welfare state approach." (H. Verlan Andersen, The Book of Mormon and the Constitution, pp. 171) I believe he was right.

This, LDS Forever, was one of the "many" quotations I was thinking of. It is pretty clear. We should not even have sympathy with these ideas amd practises - let alone believe in them as the wicked Nephites came to do.

JB, your comment about the priority of the "line of help" is correct I believe (as far as I have been informed). I think the Church today is not truly free to act as it would. The political climate means things cannot be done the way they should be, but I do not think this means that we as LDS should then assume things from inaction or lack of statements. Clearly, the words of the past are still true. If welfare had a degenarate effect upon individuals and society a few decades ago then it must have the same effect today. Those things do not change.

Perhaps the Church and ourselves are in those "snares" and we cannot act with the same amount of freedom as we could have a few decades ago...but true is still true and false is still false whatever the changing state of our freedom may be.

And so regardless of our situation is it right to support those things which are wrong? Or is that many LDS do not believe collectivism is wrong? Have they been decieved into thinking the Law of Consecration and Stewardship is based on communalism or has some genuine overlap with worldly collectivist philosophies?

Dubhdara.

Edited: dubhdara on 1st Oct, 2004 - 1:40pm

Lds Collectivist

This falls in line with another topic we have here called, 'Levels of Spirituality'. Think about it for a second, how many members do you know are even bothered or concerned with a topic such as this? We have members that struggle with wearing the right clothes further more thinking about which government system they should follow. If a mini skirt is a big issue for you how can you even comprehend the United Order? I believe it is all a matter of priorities, and in most member's list they do not have 'changing the real world' as part of their agenda. In fact, I believe most have all but given up on the real world ever changing and so they are riding out the time hoping that someone else does something about it or makes a specific statement about it. We are almost like robots destined to live in a system that carries us where it wants us to be and all that keeps us from being totally integrated is our belief.

Offtopic but, This almost sounds like the Matrix

Lds Collectivist Mormon Doctrine Studies

While reading this thread, I thought about Cuba ( a communist country) and the few brethren that are living there and they meet every sunday in member's houses, even though the Church has not have a official presence. Here there is a wonderful story of faith and devotion in how LDS members cope living in a communist country:

https://www.meridianmagazine.com/exstories/020930havana.html