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My Mormon Concerns - Page 4

As I said, I was looking for scriptural support. Not from lesson manuals.

But thank you for the explanation as given.

Concerns Mormon My

I thought the referenced scriptures were sufficient, I.e. the sacrament prayer itself, D&C 20:77, and 3 Nephi 18:1-12. They don't specifically say "renewing your baptismal covenants" but obeying the commandments, witnessing to the Father our willingness to do His will, taking upon us the name of Christ and always remember him, etc. I guess I'm not sure what you're looking for.

My Mormon Concerns Studies Doctrine Mormon

I guess that I am looking for anything in the scriptures that actually links the two. I don't think there is. I think that they are only linked through logic.

The only place where I see the definition of the baptismal covenant is in the manuals. Therefore, it is circular logic. Since the assumption is that the Sacrament is a renewal of our baptismal covenant, by then defining that covenant as being the same thing that the Sacrament covers, we are covered.

JST Matthew 26:23-24:

What I see in this verse is the statement that it is the blood of the new testament that leads to remission of sins, and that the Sacrament is held in remembrance of it. That is, to remind us that we need to look to it for the remission of our sins.

So, once again, I don't see where, scripturally, the two ordinances are directly related.

I am not trying to wrest the scriptures here, but to understand them.

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As I move along in life, I feel like I am getting bombarded with new information. Part of it comes from the fact that I have slowly gained access to specific websites, documents, and mailing lists.

20 years ago, when my daughter was about 3 months old, we drove from Biloxi, Mississippi to Logan, Utah for my grandmother's funeral. She never got to see her first great grandchild.

While visiting in Utah, my wife suddenly realized that my aunt, her husband, and all her children were Mormon Fundamentalists. They were the dreaded polygamists. She was horrified by the thought. (I am still sure that I had told her long before, but she claims otherwise.) She was very uncomfortable around them all.

Years later, we moved to Utah, where I started at BYU. A couple of my cousins came by and helped us move in to our house. They were very gracious. A little later, we received an invitation to attend a baby shower for the second daughter in their family, who was a second wife in a plural marriage. With some trepidation, my wife decided to attend, but wanted me to come along and drive there. I didn't know the way either, but I have always been confident about driving, as I don't care at all if I get lost for a while.

It was a great party. My wife came to see how truly sweet and humble the women were in that community. She still talks frequently about that experience.

Over the years since, especially as my views have changed, we have had a lot of conversations about the eternal principles of the Gospel, the changes in the ordinances, etc. She received her endowments in 1977, I received mine in 1985, so we both saw the incredible changes made in 1990. Neither of us were at all comfortable with those changes.

This weekend, we had another discussion about plural marriage, along with some other principles. She was almost shocked when she read the article that I posted on this board about Heber J. Grant. She is now coming to see things some of the same way that I do. She has even expressed an understanding and appreciation for the principle of plural marriage, although neither of us is ready to live it.

However, I am becoming ever more convinced of its importance, and how extremely important it will be as the very last days of this age come upon us. Looking at New Orleans and the breakdown of civilization there, I extrapolate that out to the times when the majority (perhaps the VAST majority) of men will be murdered by the forces of evil. There will be a breakdown of civilization as the good men are rounded up and murdered or enslaved, and the women and children are left to their own devices. Many, if not most, of those women will want to enter into families for the love and support of good men - just as there are many women who have do without that same love and support right now. The difference is that there is civilization now to give them some of the support that they need. When civilization is gone, where will they turn?

Anyway, I don't know what the future has in store for me. Perhaps I will be killed in the first moments of the true tribulations. Perhaps I will have to endure the worst of the tribulations. Perhaps the Lord will guide me to a place where I can help others to get through the tribulations. But I do know that the tribulations are coming, and that plural marriage, consecration, and the fulness of the Priesthood will be required for those places of refuge to thrive (or even to survive).

Oh well. Enough of a rant. I just wanted to get some thoughts down in writing, and none of this seemed to fit in my blog or rave thread.

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Well, it has been a while since I posted anything here.

One a recently active topic (here), I wanted to respond in my usual way, but I realized it wasn't really appropriate. I don't know if any of the people who are currently responding there will ever read this, as I think that there are only 5 of us who can read the Mature LDS Deep Doctrine area now, and we haven't had anyone new for quite a long while.

Anyway, back to my thoughts about the above mentioned topic concerning "Celestial Commandments".

As I look down the list there, I can't comfortably say that ANY of them really relate to the Celestial Kingdom. At least no more than the Terrestial Kingdom. Certainly they all help us to prepare for Celestial laws, but I really don't believe that obedience to the laws in the list will allow us into the Celestial Kingdom.

I only know of two specific laws that have to do with the Celestial Kingdom - the New and Everlasting Covenant, and Consecration. Both of these laws have been watered down for the current church.

That isn't to say that people who are very obedient with the laws listed in the other topic, and go no further in this life will be barred from the Celestial Kingdom. It certainly isn't our fault that we are prevented by various ways from being completely obedient to Celestial Law. At the same time, I don't believe that very many of us are really valiant in our testimony of Jesus Christ. ( D&C 76:79 ) I think that because there aren't very many of us who go to God and ask specifically what we need to do to become Celestial people. Most of us, including me, are content to just go with the flow. We follow current policies and leaders, never seeking independence through wisdom and knowledge. We are satisfied with being mediocre, or possibly at the "top of the heap" of mediocrity. It appears to me that true excellence requires that we step further out into the darkness, using only our light of faith, than we currently do.

It is kind of interesting to me that many of our leaders over the last few decades have used that very image to tell us what to do. That is, they tell us that faith is what will allow us to leave the comfortable circle of light, and step out into the darkness to find out that the light continues to go with us. Yet, if anyone DOES step out of the comfortable zone, they are frequently cut off from the Church. We also see, all the time, the leaders telling us that we mustn't wander off the "approved" path, or else we will lose our way. We can't shoot beyond the mark. We must keep in the decreed path.

Well, I've rambled enough on this subject. I am probably not saying anything here that I haven't said before. Yet I needed to get this off my mind.

My Mormon Concerns

It is interesting how you gathered all of that from an old Youth Sunday School manual's activity handout. I believe #1 on that list really says all and the others are just there as reminders.

Concerning your other rants: I agree that the Church is not as 'strict' as it was before, not emphasizing Doctrines that the early Prophet did, there may be reason behind that, but I do find the Church more time consuming than before. Whereas the Church in the olden days was literally a way of life and so Church activities was not really seen as 'extra', now it is portrayed as 'something to do' - to keep you busy. There is greater emphasis on meetings mostly by local leaders with the end result being more meetings. Maybe it works in other places: I do not know. However, I do feel a lot of us are missing the point and instead of humbling ourselves are looking for light in others.

My Mormon Concerns - Page 4

I am not sure what you are referring to here. Is it a post much earlier in this topic?

My Mormon Concerns Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 4

No, your last post wherein you mentioned and posted a link:

The "(here)" that you linked to is an Activity handout.