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AIDS A Divine Punishment?

From a religious point of view do you think AIDS was sent by God to punish those who are engaged in improper sexual relations? Why or why not?

Punishment Divine AIDS

From a purely religious stand point, our ultimate judgement comes after we die. Truly, what kind of God would punish you on earth while alive, then again after your dead. Your entire existence would be punishment, what a waste. The bible indicates that this has happened, but I don't believe that this is the reality of things.

AIDS isn't just a punishment on the bad people, because good and innocent people have gotten AIDS. Remember Ryan White? He was like twelve when he got AIDS and died from a blood transfer. Not only bad people have gotten AIDs.

Just my opinion, for the hill of beans its worth.

AIDS A Divine Punishment? Revealed Bible The

This is my personal opinion.

I don't believe that AIDS is a judgment or punishment from God, but believe it is a consequence of sin. Now, before you go on about the innocent people who have been infected with it, let me expand on that. The fact that innocent people have been infected/affected by AIDS is also a consequence of sin -- of the sins of other people. Those who are responsible for those innocent people suffering and dying should understand that these are also consequences of their actions, and that this suffering and affliction of innocent people will be part of their judgment before God.

Punishment Divine AIDS

Offtopic but, I wrote a post for this thread but was told that it was too long. I have been advised to post it in two sections. I can't post two messages in a row, so I will post the first half and when someone has responded, I will post the second half. By the way, does anyone know the maximum length of a post? If anyone really objects to this way of doings things, I apologise, but I was advised to do so.

First Half

If AIDS is a punishment from God for sin, we need to figure out whether it is a punishment for all sin, or just a specific type of sin.

Of course, AIDS can be transmitted through homosexual activity and the two have been particularly connected in peoples minds, so it is very easy (but lazy) to say that God uses AIDS to punish homosexuals - if you think homosexuality is a sin.

However, AIDS affects a much larger cross-section of the worlds population than that. If God is using AIDS as a punishment, he is either an idiot or a sadist.

Imagine a city with a police chief who has a mission to bring pickpockets to justice and make sure they receive a suitable punishment. He is going to cut off the fingers of their right hands so they can't pick pockets anymore. Cruel but fair, you might say.

He has the name of every pickpocket in the city on his computer database. He makes sure that a small proportion of the pickpockets are punished. He leaves the rest alone. Then he selects people, seemingly at random, and cuts off their fingers. He punishes children, the disadvantaged, people from the poorer parts of town.

The pickpockets don't realise that they are the target of the punishment because only a small proportion of them have their fingers cut off, and a much larger group of non-pickpockets are also having their fingers cut off. So they carry on picking pockets.

This police chief is either very cruel and just enjoys cutting fingers off, or he is an inefficient idiot who cannot see that his campaign is not serving any useful purpose. The pickpockets carry on picking pockets and a large number of people who have never picked a pocket get punished.

Of course, the police chief might be punishing people for other reasons - for being poor, or for being a child, or being black, or for being African or for being born. Or for being born as a poor, black African child. But he hasn't told anyone and he's not going about it in a very clever way.

Oh, and any pickpockets who are worried about getting punished can just put a rubber glove on when committing their crime. This prevents their fingers from being cut off.

So, like our police chief, if God is using AIDS as a punishment, he's mainly punishing the innocent which is cruel, inefficient and rather lazy. (Now there's a lot of evidence in the Bible to show that God is very good at punishing the innocent, so perhaps he is.)

If AIDS is a consequence of sin, as Farseer believes, why doesn't God step in and make sure that only the originators of that sin receive the consequence? If our police chief gives the order to his men to punish only pickpockets, but they punish only a few pickpockets and cut off the fingers of thousands of innocent citizens, the police chief should step in and stop them. But perhaps he doesn't actually care about the citizens of his city very much.

Meanwhile, peoples' pockets are still being picked.

AIDS is a highly emotive subject - more so than many other fatal conditions. This is almost certainly because it is so strongly connected to homosexuality in the media and the minds of those who accept the media view of things.

And we are talking about homosexuality here, not "improper sexual relations" as Neo so coyly puts it. Do rapists get AIDS? - not particularly. Do paedophiles get AIDS? - not unless they are really unlucky. Do adulterers get AIDS? - no more than anyone else. I would call these "improper sexual relations". No - Gays get AIDS.

Offtopic but, It reminds me of the joke about the wife who asks her husband "Dear, do we have sexual relations?" He replies "Of course we do, darling". She asks "Then why don't they come visit at Christmas?"

The Bible does say: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." LEV 20:13

If the Bible is the word of God, this seems a fair warning to homosexuals everywhere - but it was written thousands of years ago. Why has God waited till the late 20th Century to carry out his threat?

Would our police chief give a warning to pickpockets and wait thirty years before acting on it?

The Bible also says: "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." LEV 20:10

This seems to give fair warning to adulterers. But we are still waiting for the Cheaters Plague. Why is there no adultery specific version of AIDS?

Of course, AIDS may be a punishment for (or a consequence of) a different sin altogether. Perhaps it's punishment for cursing your father or mother. " For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death." LEV 20:9, but I don't think it's fair to give unborn children AIDS unless they can curse their parents from the womb.

And why is AIDS singled out for such treatment? Surely any disease or infirmity can be seen as a punishment, or consequence of, some sin or other.

Is cancer a punishment for taking the Lords name in vain? Is Alzheimers disease a punishment for forgetting to honour the Sabbath? I suffer from gouty arthritis. What did I do wrong, God? Perhaps it was the shrimp salad I had last night, for "whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you". LEV 11:12

Offtopic but, If you wish to see the second half of this message, please post something. Thank you.

Edited: mikejonesuk on 12th Jun, 2005 - 2:35pm

Punishment Divine AIDS

I have to disagree with a few of your points. For the most part, I agree that the idea that AIDS is a punishment for homosexuality is ridiculous.

However, the statement that adulterers don't get AIDS is wrong. That is the almost the ONLY way for AIDS to get into a married couple. At least now that most industrialized countries carefully screen their blood supply.

A pure and simple rule of strict marital fidelity, with sexual relationships ONLY within the bounds of marriage (no pre-marital sex) would completely wipe out the AIDS epidemic. In Africa, it is being spread to little children by the horrible, abusive beliefs of the tribes, that deflowering a virgin (no matter what age) will cure it. So all these men with AIDS are raping little girls as young as 3 or 4 years old.

So, lets consider just how it is spread:
1. Homosexual sex (far and away the #1 method)
2. Dirty needles (illegal and immoral conduct, by anyone's standards)
3. Heterosexual sex outside of marriage.
4. Blood transfusions (extremely rare in the industrialized world now)

So, for people who believe that sexual relationships outside of marriage are immoral and sinful, then the it is easy to come to the conclusion that AIDS is punishment for such behavior.

No matter how AIDS got started, the spread of it depends on (what I identify as) immoral behavior. So, it is a consequence of such behavior at all times! There are lots and lots of innocent victims, but all of them can be traced back to the immoral behavior of other people, just as all victims of murder, rape, robbery, or assault can be traced back to the immoral behavior of other people. That is why they are called victims.

AIDS A Divine Punishment?

Offtopic but, This is the second half of my message. The original message was too long, so I was advised to send it as two posts. To read the first half, look at the post before the last one. I will definitely try to make my posts smaller in future. (I will try to address the points raised by Nighthawk at a later time as it is bedtime here in the UK.)

Second half

It is easy, and lazy, to see the suffering of people we disapprove of
as punishment. (But if someone we love or admire suffers, somehow that
becomes a "test" or "trial".) And of course, those people who see AIDS
as a punishment tend to disapprove of homosexuality. It's generally not
seen as punishment for shop-lifting (Thou shall not steal) or perjury
(Thou shall not bear false witness).

Of course, this argument assumes that homosexuality is a sin that needs
to be punished. I actually don't believe that. In the Bible, it says
that homosexuality is an abomination. It also says " The nakedness of thy
son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness
thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness." LEV 18:10,
which tells me that God does not want grandparents helping out by bathing
their own granddaughters. I have three granddaughters (10 months, 20
months and 6 years). When they come to stay with us, God doesn't want me
or their grandmother to undress them or bathe them. It could be really
tricky trying to change a nappy (diaper) without uncovering their
nakedness. But then God didn't even bring up his own child so he wouldn't
know, and he doesn't have grandkids that I'm aware of. (But, look, it's
OK, apparently, to undress my grandson.)

To get back to the point, AIDS is not a punishment from God - even a
cruel and vindictive one. Could anyone believe in a God so stupid?

Which brings us to Farseer's point. Is AIDS a consequence of sin, even
if it is not a punishment? Obviously, homosexuals, drug users and
prostitutes can get aids as a consequence of their actions. If you think
that those actions are sinful, then you will believe that they contracted
AIDS as a consequence of sin. It depends on your definition of sin. (I
would hate to think that God is punishing prostitutes and drug users -
their lives are hellish enough already. Anyway, as far as I know the
Bible does not threaten to punish prostitutes and drug users with death
-so it would be unfair to do so.)

But other illnesses are consequences of the sufferer's actions - but we
do not condemn these people in the same way we condemn AIDS sufferers.
Smokers get cancer, over-eaters get strokes and have heart attacks,
mountaineers fall off and break their backs. So what? Virtually every
illness and infirmity we - you - suffer from is a result of your actions.

AIDS and the spread of AIDS is a consequence of ignorance and society's
inability to think clearly and act quickly.

By blaming AIDS on sin, we absolve ourselves of our responsiblity to do
anything about it. We have adopted a smug, self-righteous attitude -
"Look, gays are getting AIDS, it serves them right, God says so, let
them die."

Society's lack of action at the beginning of the AIDS crisis - by
calling it the Gay Plague and assuming that only people who "deserve" it
would get it, has allowed AIDS to reach the world-wide epidemic
proportions it has today. By using the Bible (or other religious tracts) as
justification for unthinking behaviour, and adopting the "Not My Fault - Go
Away" mentality, people have found blame, not searched for solutions.

Unfortunately, we can blame the spread of AIDS on ignorance.
Superstition and religious dogmatism in, particularly, the African nations has
allowed, even encouraged, the spread of AIDS. The belief that a man can
cure his own AIDS by having sex with a virgin has resulted in rape and
child abuse and the further spread of AIDS. (In this case, a man is
driven to sin by AIDS, not the other way round.) Those who believe that
suffering is somehow a punishment from God, or is somehow deserved by the
sufferer because "they should have known better", have allowed the AIDS
plague to spread across the world and decimate the poor, black
uneducated countries of the world.

The sooner we stop blaming and start helping, the sooner we start to
cure the world. It has started to break into India's general population
now - another epidemic on the way. Low cost drugs, education, tolerance
and compassion are needed - not blame.

In the meantime, perhaps we should encourage people to take up other
activities that are not mentioned in the Bible as abominations. Like
paedophilia. The Bible doesn't condemn it, so it must be OK. What do you
think?

As you can guess, I am fairly tolerant of other peoples behaviour and
do not judge them or condemn them for living lives I cannot begin to
understand. I am an atheist (as you can see from my profile) and I don't
believe the Bible is the word of God. However, there is one group of
people that I am extremely intolerant of. These people suffer pain,
mutilation and death because of their actions. Actions which are selfish and
result in pain and death for other innocent people, including children.
They cause me and my family great discomfort and their actions cause my
life to be restricted.They are fully aware of the consequences of their
actions but still blindly refuse to stop. They could easily get help if
they wanted to, and could even be "cured". If there is a God, and he
wants to punish someone, he should start with these people.

I am talking about smokers.

Ah - perhaps cancer is a punishment from God after all.

AIDS Divine Punishment

Whenever we disobey particular commandments then yes there are certain consequences will follow, God loves all his children great or small, little or tall and that is why he gives us commandments to avoid nasty consequences that may scientifically follow, its not god's punishment just consequences of wreckless behaviour that unfortunately may also afflict the innocent.

AIDS Divine Punishment The Bible Revealed

The original question: "From a religious point of view do you think AIDS was sent by God to punish those who are engaged in improper sexual relations? Why or why not?"

Absolutely not! I do not believe God decided to send this disease and infect humans as a punishment for any behavior. I do not believe he works like that. He loves us. He is our Heavenly Father. Think of your relationship with your children (or parents if you don't have any). When your child is about to do something bad, do you choose a punishment so severe that they will suffer the rest of their lives for it? No. However, if such consequences arrive from their decisions, you must allow them to suffer such. You wouldn't deliberately pass such a sentence, would you? I think the virus exists and was spread from monkeys because of actions taken by man, and God allows it to happen, but he didn't intentionally say, I am going to give man AIDS because he is being bad.