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Mature Mormon Discussion Of The Last Days

This topic is designed for a deep (very deep), mature discussion of the Last Days. I will start with a few of the things I have learned over the last few years of study on this subject.

Be aware, some of the things I have to say will NOT be popular. In fact, I know people who have been excommunicated for espousing some of these things. I still don't know what I really believe here, other than a few basic items, which I will tag as such when I bring them up.

I will put together a full post in a little bit.

But to start with, here are a few items that I personally really believe.

1. There is, or will be, a Davidic King. This is the person referred to D&C 85:7-8.

I have a very strong, firm testimony of this fact. I know that he will come forth, and that the Church will reject him, but that he will lead the final battles, especially around Missouri, against the Assyrian King (the Antichrist of Revelation).

2. The Church, in general, will reject the people and the way that the Lord will provide for the temporal salvation of the saints - the salvation from the forces of the Assyrian King. Because of this, they will suffer greatly.

3. The Church, as it will exist in Zion, and into the Millenium, will be nothing at all like what we now experience.

4. The day will soon come, when it will only be our personal testimonies, and our personal faith, that will be able to provide us with any safety.

5. The Lord WILL provide certain places of true safety. The Sanpete Valley (where the Manti Temple is located) is one of them. It is also up to us to find out where the Lord wants us to be, in order to be able to get to those safe places.

These are just a few of my views on this subject. And these are some of the less controversial ones.

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When you use the word 'Church' are you referring to the official or the collective? This is obviously part of the 'Great Divide' that everyone is speculating on, but where is authority in all of this? Why wouldn't the mighty and strong one come through the rank and file of the Church so as to be known?

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I guess that I am speaking about both, the membership and the official organization.

The two most likely people to be the One Mighty and Strong are John the Beloved, and Joseph Smith. Each is a likely candidate for specific, and very different, reasons.

John the Beloved is the senior Apostle, by any way you figure it. He is also most likely the "marred" servant spoken of in Isaiah, as tradition holds that he was thrown into a vat of boiling oil. Yet as a Terrestial Being, he survived and healed, although again, he is said to bear the scars. He is outside the Church, and most people would refuse to follow him for that very reason.

Brigham Young, and others, claimed that Joseph Smith, as head of this dispensation, still has a great work to do to wrap it up and give it over to Adam at the great Council. Of course, if he were to come in and set the Church in order, most of the membership would refuse to believe that it is really him. Especially since most are convinced that the Church is essentially perfect, and will just move forward the way it has been, right into the Millennium.

As for why it wouldn't be someone coming up through the ranks of the Church, things are in such an order that it is essentially impossible for that to happen. The Apostles are all in lock-step with the corporate Church. Anyone who even expresses the thought that the Church is in Apostacy in any way, is subject to excommunication. And once a person is excommunicated, no matter what the reason, they are forever suspect to the vast majority of Church members.

Take a look at Isaiah 29. Keep in mind that Ephraim refers to the present day Church. It is a clear, unequivocal condemnation of the corporate Church.

The ranks of the leadership of the Church is filled with "learned" men and businessmen. Several of the early Prophets said that when this happened, the Church would be in trouble. Even more alarming is the very clear statements that when the Church was acceptable to the World, then the Church would be in almost complete apostacy.

Why would the Church need to be set in order, as D&C 85 show, if it was completely IN order? Why do we now have the GAs telling us in General Conference that we have years and years ahead of us before the tribulations start? (President Packer, in a recent conference, said that his grandchildren would be able to play among the trees that he recently planted, as would his grandchildrens' grandchildren, before the great tribulations begin. Or something to that effect.)

President Hinckley, in an interview in Los Angeles several years ago, claimed that we have over 150 years of doctrinal stability and purity. Yet anyone who has studied any Church History knows that this is not true, since the Church now condemns doctrines that Brigham Young was taught by Joseph Smith, confirmed by revelation, and then taught in the Tabernacle. Most members, if asked why the Church practiced plural marriage will say that it was because there were a lot of widows and single women who needed to be taken care of in the 1800s. Yet that is NOT the reason that the GAs gave over and over in the 1800s. No, it is a rationalization of the fact that the Church now considers plural marriage an abomination, rather than the most noble of all God's laws.

In a recent discussion with an online friend, I brought up the fact that I disagree with the idea that Plural Marriage and the United Order have been forsaken by the Church. He gave the standard answer that I once gave to people. He believes it will once again be practiced during the Millennium. Well, as far as I am concerned, that is the single GREATEST indictment against the Church, and an implicit acknowledgement by the membership that the Church is in apostacy. This is the RESTORATION, the time when ALL things will be Restored. Yet here are these two laws, clearly stated as being Celestial Laws, that are shunned and denounced by the Church.

All of these things show why the One Mighty and Strong will not come through the normal channels. Not to mention that many people who have had these visions and dreams have agreed from their experiences that when he appears, he will completely shake up the Church. Bishop Koyle, of the Relief Mine, said that he was shown Joseph Smith, entering into General Conference, and releasing all of the General Authorities, then calling new ones, all from the humble members of the Church. From the people who are often considered "less active", or bothersome, or foolish, or ignorant.

Enough for now.

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A lot of interesting points in which to build a level of discussion that makes you wonder if we are still talking about the same Church. This goes back to that old abandoned thread we once had about the Prophet said so, so it is enough... and one has to ask, if your perspective and interpretation is true then where does the living Prophet fit into this? Are we saying that Divine revelation to govern is no more or that the Prophet is telling us something that we refused to see? There must be an explanation for why the Church authorities would 'allow' for such a high level of 'apostacy' as you put it to take place.

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I heard about the Mighty and Strong for a long time and I personally feel it was not Joseph Smith but I could be wrong here. As Nighthawk pointed out I think the day this "person" shows up MOST of the Church members will reject his words because in my humble opinion, he will say a lot of things that will be contrary to what we have been taught in a variety of subjects. I think most of us will not know what to do, I think that's why it is so important for each one of us to pray daily for these things to Heavenly Father, specially to ask him to know how to recognize these signs when they come in our way.

I believe there are many good people in and out the Church. It does concerns me GREATELY this "urge" of want to please the world so much. The Church as an institution is concerned way too much of what others may think of us, I thought we passed that stage and payed with the blood of our dear pioneers.

Mature Mormon Discussion Of The Last Days

Well, I cut out a lot of material that I had put into that previous post.

I am working on resolving these issues for myself. I would never dream of telling anyone else what the answers are to these questions, unless the Holy Ghost demands it of me, which I really doubt will happen before I get a firm, undeniable answer to them.

However, I am aware of a whole bunch of facts, speculations, and anecdotes regarding these very questions.

1. Bishop Koyle claimed to have had a 2 hour session of learning with 2 of the 3 Nephite Disciples. In the early days of the Relief Mine, he was forbidden to share more than the first 1/2 hour of that discussion. However, later on, he was able to share some more of it.

In that discussion, he was told that Heber J. Grant would succeed Joseph F. Smith as President of the Church, and that President Grant would make many changes. Some of those changes included changes to the Endowment, to the garments, and to the organization of the Church. Starting with him, the GAs began to be learned men and business men, rather than the humble men of the Church. Joseph Smith also prophecied that same thing to some individuals, that although these individuals had marvelous experiences, and incredible testimonies, they would soon be cast out of the councils of the church because they weren't wealthy or prominent enough.

Heber J. Grant was also the first Prophet to persecute polygamists in order to gain the respect of the government of the US.

This is NOT to say that he was not a good man, that he did not hold the Priesthood, or that he was not the proper man to be President of the Church. But it is entirely possible that the course he put the Church was off the correct path.

2. During the early years of the 1900s, the format of ordinations was changed, by decree from the 1st Presidency. Specifically, people were set apart to offices within the Priesthood, not ordained to them. Eventually, it was changed back.

3. In the 1980s, the office of Patriarch to the Church was done away with. Yet there are indications that Joseph Smith had been preparing things so that the Patriarch would be the spiritual leader of the Church, and the President would be the "temporal" leader. This organizational format would extend to the lowest levels, as the Stake Patriarch would be the spiritual leader, and the Stake President the temporal, the Bishop be the temporal leader and the Elder's Quorum President the spiritual. However, the documentation for this organization is shaky.

The fact that the Patriarch of the Church is no longer a valid office is NOT shaky. The Patriarch of the Church is older than President Hinckley, he is apparently still in good shape, but he certainly is old. And the 1st Presidency is on record stating that he will be the last. He also has no official duties - at all.

4. There is no doubt, whatsoever, that the ordinances have been significantly changed. We have discussed that somewhat elsewhere. What struck me, several years ago, is that Isaiah talks about the changes made to the Everlasting Ordinances (in the Temple), and how the people who make those changes will face condemnation. Who has those ordinances, besides us? Was he referring to the Ancient Christian church? Possibly, but I think he was referring to both.

So, if I am correct in my understanding, and this is one of the things I am searching for answers on, then the leaders of the Church are in a rather significant degree of apostacy concerning these subjects.

Finally, remember that the Lord has stated that the tribulations will begin upon His house (the Church) because of its lack of faith and fidelity.

As I said before, I don't make any claims about who he is. Just THAT he is. This is one of the few things that I have received a strong spiritual answer upon. I do tend to think it will be John.

However, the Church officially won't even discuss it. Bruce R. McConkie made very light of this subject, several times, and the Church has followed his lead. They disregard it, claiming it will just be a bishop who will work within the United Order at sometime after, or just before, the Second Coming. In other words, they try to make out that it is only a matter of setting in order the inheritences of people.

There does seem to be some real correlation though between the One Mighty and Strong, and the Davidic King. Perhaps they won't be the same person, but I would certainly say that the One would be a chief minister to the Davidic King.

Edited: Nighthawk on 28th Jun, 2005 - 4:27pm

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In the Plural Marriage thread we did mention that even though the Sealing to more than one wife was forbidden in the Church yet Pres. Grant married another woman on his way to Hawaii (can't remember exact place, but it was at sea). I have found that unusual and have also been seeking answers to that. The reason I bring it up here is because it falls in line with the first part of your message above. I have also seen where the Church making and taking many decisions that seem to make us more like 'born-agains' rather than the original Church.

Even in my short membership of some 25 years I have seen drastic changes that seem to almost make such important things irrelevant. This is very rampant especially among the leaders who seem to focus as you said on business and highlights of the world. Just recently my wife was telling me about a Patriarch that was released in Argentina because he said in Stake Conference that if members joined the Church to look for welfare then they joined the wrong Church - (that is the reason the Patriarch gave or his being released - I cannot confirm the reason) and I would not be surprised. You have read the happenings in Trinidad with the Church there, such exists in many parts of the world. Even here we have some instances which we still need to document.

In all, could it be that we are just misguided by our limited perspective wherein we are mixing up what is the pure Church with the infiltrations of the devil? If not, then there needs to be something potent that would reveal such. There are small, subtle changes, but there has also been the same throughout scripture and even Joseph's time, maybe there is something bigger - still to come. I have often discussed with my wife that it may begin with Monson - the next Prophet.

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Actually, I am almost certain that it was Joseph F. Smith who entered into another plural marriage, over 12 miles outside of San Francisco, some years after the Manifesto was presented. What is very interesting about this is that ALL the GAs of the time, from whom we have written material concerning this issue, agreed that the Manifesto was meant to be ONLY a political manuever, and not binding on the Church as a whole. Under President Grant, the Manifesto became binding (the members were bound by it as with silken cords), and the Church began to persecute those people who entered into Plural Marriage.

What is interesting is that there are extremely clear statements by John Taylor and Wilfred Woodruff, as late as 1889, stating that through revelation they knew that plural marriage and the United Order would NOT be taken from the Church.

I have also read, several places, that the Articles of Faith were added to the canon, becoming scripture, after the Manifesto, specifically as a means of justifying the Church's submission to the US government because of the 12th Article of Faith.

One final point on this issue. The Manifesto is considered scripture. Are the statements ADDED to the Manifesto, which contain the ONLY quotes about the leaders not being able to lead the Church astray, are they also scripture? I don't think so. Yet that single quote - "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty." - is the justification for the constant admonition to us to "follow the Prophet" no matter what.

I am not going to rehash our old arguments, just point out this simple thing.

Back to how this affects us, in the Last Days.

I am one of the worst examples possible about dealing with anything. Yet even I have come to know that there is much, much more to the Fulness of the Gospel, that we are ignoring and avoiding, to our everlasting peril. There are a whole bunch of principles that we not only need to know about and be willing to live, but also be practicing, in order to be prepared for Zion. And those not prepared to live in Zion, will have to go through the tribulations (including death for most), in order to clear the way for those who ARE able to live the principles. I think that I was far too liberal in thinking that 5% of the members would be prepared to go to Zion. I hope I am wrong. However, I really think that no more than 5% are prepared. And the rest of us are going to be in a world of hurt in those days.

Ok, back to prophecies.

In the document I linked to earlier, there is a very large section on Bishop Koyle. A full electronic copy of the three major books, compiled by a friend of mine with his own observations, is available on the Dream Mine Yahoo group.

Bishop Koyle saw in vision that it would be possible for a man to walk from the Point of the Mountain (the ridge that separates Salt Lake Valley from Utah Valley) to the Relief Mine (about 40 miles) without his feet ever touching the ground, because he would be forced to walk on all the dead spread throughout the valley. Folks, those are almost all Mormons who would die in that area, both from disease and from hostile actions. He also saw huge earthquakes that would break all the dams in Utah, and would level Salt Lake City.

Just the dams breaking above Provo would essentially wipe out Utah County (Provo, Orem, Spanish Fork, American Fork, Pleasant Grove, Payson, Lehi, and a few other small towns).

He also saw, in vision, that there would be NO food in the Utah area. However, about 6 months before that happens, the Relief Mine will come in, and the gold will be used to purchase massive amounts of wheat, just before the total transportation infrastructure of the US fails.

There is much, much more information about the Last Days contained within the Dream/Relief Mine stories. The Church seriously, and consistently tried to shut him up, but was unable to do so.

One final note about these stories. Elder James E. Talmage was one of the greatest opponents of the Relief Mine, constantly preaching against it, using his "authority" to deride it (and Bishop Koyle), and seeking to have the Bishop excommunicated. Some time after Elder Talmage's death, the Bishop reported that Elder Talmage came to him begging for his forgiveness.

Very, very few of the "unorthodox" prophecies have much to say about the Church, but a good deal to say about the members. The only consistent thread that I have noticed in them about the Church is to say that there would be a huge split in it, most likely into three bodies. The one that claims "legal" authority is definitely not the one to follow.

The only way, that I can see, to survive and prosper in the Last Days is to seek out, and nourish, the gift of revelation, in order to know exactly who to follow when the crunch comes.

I agree, the big thing will most likely begin with President Monson. And it isn't going to be pretty.