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I have not responded as yet because I want to first take a look at Bishop Koyle's writings, but first I must ask why you give so much credence to his words? What fruits has he shown you?

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President Joseph F Smith was found guilty of unlawful cohabitation in 1906 (which means he did not "abandon" his plural wives as he was supposed to) but it does not mean that he entered into a new marriage. In President Grant's case, he was the last President of the Church to enter Plural Marriage if I am not wrong, although it is clear that there were other Church Presidents who entered Plural Marriages after the Manifesto like Pres. Woodfruff himself in 1897 (in the ship on the Pacific Ocean remember?). What about President Snow? he cohabited his youngest plural wife who had to leave to Canada to bear his last child in 1896. (he was 82 years old).

It is a mess every time I read about Plural Marriage, it seems like everybody was doing their own thing and you are not sure whether everything was a set up to fool the world or they really wanted to stop it. I still trying to figure it out when I see how many contradictions exist.

Now, I want to relate this topic to the last days. I think we are not very far way from the day Plural Marriage will be accepted in the West and it will be perfectly normal and legal. Years ago you could not think about the legality of gay marriages and look how the world has become. I just would like to know how will be the reaction or position of the Church once Plural Marriage becomes perfectly legal. Will not be ironic for the world to practise Plural Marriage then and our Church decides not to because it goes against the commandments of God?. What an utopia.

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I am not even sure how to answer this question. I am not sure how much credence I give his words (he never wrote ANYTHING about his visions or his works - he was forbidden to do so).

The strongest evidence for him is that all the predictions he made about the mine were fulfilled, to the tiniest detail. His prophecies/predictions all had to do with the conditions relating to the mine, how it would come in, and how it would affect the people and the region. His only predictions concerning the Church in general dealt with how the Church was handling the mine, and how it would do so in the future. Again, all those predictions so far have been right on, right down to the names of the authorities who would eventually persecute the mine and its stockholders.

Finally, while I don't have a strong testimony of the mine, I do have a small one. I can't explain it, just that I get the same feeling whenever I study the story of the mine that I do when I read the scriptures.

Yes, it really will be ironic. And, I fully expect it to happen. As I have noted before, the Church is so heavily invested in the anti-polygamy mindset that most members of the church, especially in Utah, buy into the idea that plural marriage really is the most detestable form of relationship there is. In fact, when they (Utah) passed the recent anti-gay marriage amendment, they specifically tried to word it so that it would also apply to plural marriage.

If, and it is a HUGE "if" in my opinion, the Church does even simply ALLOW plural marriage, that could easily cause a massive rift in the structure of the Church. I would almost be willing to put money on it, and lay odds, that over 70% of the members of the church would reject that very concept. Remember, there was massive pressure from members of the Church to stop the practice, and that was when there was no quibbling about whether or not it was official doctrine. Now that we have had several GAs, including President Hinckley, denouncing the practice, most members are not going to simply accept its return. Not without a HUGE supernatural confirmation from God that it is His will.

Maybe that is what the earthquakes will be about. Hmm. Food for thought.

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I'll just toss my hat into this arena...

Offtopic but, Nighthawk, you *are* the man of controversy, and just when I get all comfortable in my "zone" you jostle things around and start asking questions again.

While I'm not very familiar with Bishop Koyle and the Mine issues, I understand that there is sort of a "following" surrounding them, and I would imagine there will be issues in the Tribulations regarding it that will happen, maybe as self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't really know enough to make any relevant comment.

As to plural marriage, I believe that it was beginning to be used improperly, many of the saints were against it, the government was putting pressure on the church and condemning it, etc., and that is why it was stopped -- not because of revelation or commandment from God. The early prophets were adament that we could NOT be exalted without it. How could that change? Are we to then say that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor, etc., are now to be damned because they died whilst plurally married? I don't think so.

I've started this reply much too late at night -- I'm exhausted, my daughter is begging me to come tuck her in, and this is the first night in nearly a week that my computer has let me online -- so I'm going to stop for now but will post more when I can find some more time to do so. This is a favorite topic of mine (the Last Days), so I will return!

Roz

Offtopic but, I'm going to go slightly off topic here for just a minute, but it rolls back around to what you're talking about with the walking 40 miles without touching the ground.. There is a web bot project, you may have heard of it, run by a group at Half Past Human (there is a website by the same name, but it's subscription only so I won't link it). The premise is collective consciousness, and that discussions of all sorts on the internet and world-wide-web can be text-searched for commonality of words, phrases, theme, and topics, etc., and "foresee" major events. For instance, the authors claim that there was indication of the 9/11 incidents 140 days prior to the events through the web bots research, and also the recent tsunamis ("dangerous water" and "return the land to primitive"). Recently, within the past month or so, the collective has been talking a lot about "roads with feet" and roads "covered/blanketed by people," and nursing of wounds taking place "in the road/roadway" and that what may cause this is earthquake -- "ten times in one day" the people in the roadway will "wait out the shakes" by sitting down. I find this not very accurate as to when or where, but *extremely* interesting.

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I can't help thinking of D&C 28 when reading about Bishop Koyle. Hiram Page claimed having a stone through which he received revelations concerning the Church. Joseph Smith was very clear as to how we were to handle such claims.

This is from the preface of that chapter:

IMO, the best false revelations are those that contains some truth in it, so that they seem provable...

I also get the impression, after having read many of the threads in here, that plural marriage was very widespread among Church members in J. Smiths time. However I've been taught that only a few were asked to do this, and only the prophet Joseph Smith had the keys to it. I just read in a book I have (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith - collected by Joseph Fielding Smith) the following statement by JS:
(Translated from Norwegian)

This is somewhat also in accordance with Jacob 2:27-30:

But, I might not have read as much as you, yet...

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Nighthawk said:

I will like to touch on this topic. You are saying is up to us to find out where the Lord wants us to be, yet the Brethren counsel us to stay in our own countries and not flee for instance to the USA, even though I could perfectly see a political connection to such statement, isn't this a way to say that wherever we are we can be spared if we live our lives righteously?

Rather off topic, but... Joheri, you may want to continue the discussion on Plural Marriage here: https://www.bordeglobal.com/foruminv/index.php?showtopic=6594 Now, keep in mind that there are 54 pages of discussion on this topic, so you will need to read all the pages before posting, so we do not go back to the "basics" of it. Believe me, is worth it. You will be able to see a development on the topic as the pages go by, lots of information, quotes and discoveries. My favorite thread in the whole forum.

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That is the "pat" answer concerning Bishop Koyle. We have a topic concerning him, specifically. However, just one little point.

Bishop Koyle did NOT claim any sort of revelations concerning the Church, as a whole. He received revelations concerning a small plot of land, in Utah Valley, and how he should prepare it for the future, in order to SAVE the faithful remnants of the Church. In accordance with that, he received extensive revelations concerning the future, not only of the Church, but of the nation and the world.

Bishop Koyle did not ever, in any way, try to supplant the leadership of the Church. That is what D&C 28 was about.

Any further discussion directly about Bishop Koyle should be taken to the appropriate topic.

Rather off topic, but... Please go to the discussion on Plural Marriage. I would love to read your input there.

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I have just read through D&C 85:7-8 which has already been quoted. I can't really relate this to a Davidic King. One will have to take this chapter out of its context in order to relate this to a Davidic King.

I found an interesting website explaining this chapter thoroughly: https://mormonfundamentalism.com/OneMightyandStrong9.htm

I hope I am not violating the rules when posting this link. It seems ok, though not official...

I understand there are other scriptures reffering to the Davidic King, but I don't think this one does.

IMO