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Mormons: Deeply Flawed, Deeply Spiritual?

Can someone who is Deeply Flawed also be Deeply Spiritual?

I think we have discussed facets of this topic in other threads, but not dealt with it in depth. It's been on my mind for some time now, because of different experiences with people.

As an example, I had formed an opinion of someone based on my experience with that person. It wasn't a good opinion. This member of the church was a counselor in my ward bishopric, owned a successful business, had a devoted wife and children. So why did I not have a good opinion? He was heavily involved in pornography, showed pictures of naked women to me at his office (I worked there briefly), even started to take his pants down in front of me in the office while "On the way to the bathroom." When he died, he left his wife in financially dire straits because he had borrowed against his life insurance policy and their home -- and he knew it, because he sat and cried to me about it in the office one day about a week before he died. He spoke very poorly of his wife to other people (including me), many of them clients of his business, and they in turn had very poor opinions of his wife (to the point of spurning her quite rudely, and she having no idea why they would act that way) and whom I found to be one of the wisest, kindest women I have ever met. To my way of thinking, this man was deeply flawed.

On the other hand, I have heard from other people how well he was loved, the selfless work he performed for the youth of the church. I have heard from members who were affected in a very positive way because he was their dedicated home teacher from the time they were young children. His own wife and children loved and respected him. Literally hundreds of people from the church and community attended his funeral. He once gave me a one-line quote that I still use quite frequently, and even apply to him: "Don't let people in the church keep you away from church."

Are we *all* deeply flawed, and yet by Grace are acceptable before the Lord? Maybe, but maybe not.

In Ether 10 we read about Morianton and his exploits. " 10 And after that he had established himself king he did ease the burden of the people, by which he did gain favor in the eyes of the people, and they did anoint him to be their king. 11 And he did do justice unto the people, but not unto himself because of his many whoredoms; wherefore he was cut off from the presence of the Lord." He was a good king, the people prospered under his reign, yet he himself was cut off from the Lord.


What are your thoughts about this? Do you know people in similar circumstances?

Spiritual Deeply Flawed Deeply Mormons

I have mentioned this many times in many Threads. You cannot be deeply spiritual and at the same time conducting 'business' that would jeopardized that same so called spirituality.

I think the main thing here is that the perception of people is what is flawed and not that the person was ever deeply spiritual. My wife and I Discuss this all the time. We can SEE very readily the pretense of people and yet we will hear others say how great the person is or how nice they are and we often wonder if they are blind.

People have dulled their own spirit and become robotic and routine as to what should be considered spiritual. Most Members feel that the calling you have tells how spiritual you are, that you are sitting in meetings and always at activities - this means you are spiritual. You smile and shake hands, this means you are spiritual. Reminds me of the pharisees and a saying that my wife has... in the land of the Blind the man with One Eye is King.

Mormons: Deeply Flawed, Deeply Spiritual? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Okay, I understand about people's perceptions of what is or isn't real. But how about this example:

A member with a serious problem goes to see his stake president for an interview and to receive a blessing. The stake president meets with him and they talk for a few minutes; the stake president lays his hands on the other man's head to pronounce the blessing (going through the standard/rote words to invoke it) ... and then stops. He tells the man that he has received revelation that he, the stake president, must go to the temple for prayer and meditation before he can pronounce a blessing on this member. A few days later, the stake president calls the member back and pronounces a blessing on this man that changes his life.

I would say from this example that this stake president is a deeply spiritual man. However, I have also witnessed business dealings with this stake president (secular business, of course) and political activities that were less than honest. I have heard from neighbors (more than one at different times) how he shouts obscenities at his wife and family that they can hear 1/2 mile down the street. I can recount a dozen more not-so-wonderful aspects of this guy, and yet ... he receives revelation on behalf of his stake.

How can this be reconciled in my own mind?

Spiritual Deeply Flawed Deeply Mormons

There are many things I can say about this, but the key thing here is that the man's life was changed, I am guessing for a positive. What we must ascertain is not what the Bishop did, but what happened to the man - again it is a question of perception / perspective. We are focusing on the Stake President and not the end result.

* Was the man healed by his own faith?
* Was the man in fact already being blessed and was looking for confirmation?
* Who did the man believe changed his life?

What I am getting at is that the spiritual giant may have been the receiver, the person seeking after the blessing, but many always look at the mouth or the man.

I do not want to take away anything from what the Stake President did, but theatrics does wonders to convince people towards greater faith or less of it. It could have been that he could not give a blessing because he truly was without spirit. It could also have been that at that very moment he really did gain inspiration to get his act together and repent if he was truly going to be a conduit for the man to get a blessing. Who knows what existed in him at that point and time.

Spiritual Deeply Flawed Deeply Mormons

No, you cannot. In order for someone to be "deeply spiritual" the Spirit MUST be present within the person. When someone is heavily involve in the things you mentioned, the Spirit is not longer with such individual.

It is just people's perception that creates the whole appearance of spirituality. Unfortunately, the Church culture is that someone who has a large family, is highly educated, wealthy, speaks properly, shakes hands and smiles to everyone is an "Example" of how all we should be, the person is suddenly "Spiritual" because they come to Church every Sunday or they do their home teaching but little they know people live double lives, and it happens in ALL areas and the Church is not the exception.

Remember the Scripture on 1 Samuel 16:7

And Matthew 7:18

Mormons: Deeply Flawed, Deeply Spiritual?

I think one has to define what spiritual is. There are 2 different kinds of spiritual influence.

When people commit sin they become full of darkness and are subject to dark forces. Satan has his version of the inspiration and the holy ghost.

I would be very careful about takeing what such as individual said to heart.

I have never been a bishop or anything. I am just now getting activated again.

One could say that Aleister Crowley was spiritual, but from what spirit?

At times he might have got the spirit from the right source, at other time maybe not.

That is just my what I think. Spare me the grace period if you disagree.

Edited: Quasar on 24th Aug, 2008 - 7:07am

Mormons Deeply Flawed Deeply Spiritual

I agree with you and think you have made a great point here JB.

It wasn't the stake president who blessed the man who came to talk to him. It was the Lord, and the truth of the matter is, the Lord uses imperfect people as his messengers--that is what he has to work with.

The stake president must not of been "past feeling" the spirit if he was prompted to go to the temple and came back with a blessing that changed this mans life--I wonder if perhaps he was the one that needed to prepare to GIVE the blessing, not the other to RECEIVE it.

Quasar said:

In my opinion a different way to word this would be--"as people sin, they lose the light of Christ and by doing this repeatedly they can become full of darkness. We need to remember that we lose the Spirit when we disobey even little promptings--not just huge ones. So the more we lose it, then like you said, we are subject to dark forces and we shut out the light that would help us. Does that make sense?

Congratulations on becoming activated again. I have been in your shoes as well and there is nothing I am more thankful for than the chance to have come back and turn my life around.

Rather off topic, but... I did a quick search on Aleister Crowley, as I have not heard this name before. I think it is someone that has to do with witchcraft, is that correct?

Mormons Deeply Flawed Deeply Spiritual Mormon Doctrine Studies

FarSeer, based on this Thread and the one where you posted being blessed to have your family not get in the way - I must say you almost remind me of what we go through with "Can't Commune With The Saints".