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Big Brother Watch Out: Us Admin Spies On Citizens

I would like to have a discussion about some of the security measures taken out by the US Government and agencies on the civilian population.

First it was revealed the Bush administration had authorised eavesdropping on people in the United States. US President George W Bush has defended that covert program and vowed to continue the practice, saying it's vital to protect the country.

This form of monitoring included intercepting emails, spying etc without a warrant.

Now it has been revealed US officials have secretly monitored radiation levels at Muslim sites, including mosques and private homes, since September 11, as part of a top secret program searching for nuclear bombs.

It was revealed on the below website but mysteriously the page has been pulled.

FBI spies on American Muslims

Do you believe this high level of security is really justified for the perceived threat?
Are the Government's justifications for these invasions of privacy, in many cases illegal, good enough?
Are US-based muslims being unfairly targeted, seeing as it has never been proven they had anything to do with September 11?
Are they going too far, or is this the right course?
Will these measures protect Americans from terrorist attacks?

My personal opinion is that by taking such draconian measures on the population, they are effectively eroding the freedoms they strive to protect. But I don't live in the US, so I want to hear from people that do.

However, I remember when so called "sleeper cells" of muslim men were arrested in Detroit and other places in the US allegedly linked to Al Quaeda. One of the cases presented a family video of a trip to Disneyland as the major pillar of evidence. A court was told that the cameraman panning over a rubbish bin could have been used to map out a bomb site.

Seeing as there have been no convictions of US muslim terrorists, I am wondering whether they deserve to be targeted in such a harsh way. How would Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or other people feel if their places of worship were starting to be monitored?

I would really like to hear from some Americans who are living in this situation. And others from around the world to see how their security stacks up.

Edited: arvhic on 24th Dec, 2005 - 4:58am

Citizens Spies Admin Out Watch Brother Big

Alito Defended Ordering Domestic Wiretaps

WASHINGTON - Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito defended the right of government officials to order domestic wiretaps for national security when he worked at the Reagan Justice Department, an echo of President Bush's rationale for spying on U.S. residents in the war on terror.
Ref. https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051224/ap_on_go_su_co/alito

Big Brother Watch Out: Us Admin Spies On Citizens History & Civil Business Politics

Excellent thread to start. I am surprised to be one of the first to post my opinion here. To be honest, I feel that the presidents actions border on treason! I shall elaborate.

He initiated and signed a law that took away basic civil rights we have come to defend even in other countries. You cannot decide to monitor people under that guise of terrorism without warrant. What will the next step be? At what point is religion a defining factor on whether or not its ok?

If you allow one culture, one religious group, one group of people to be exploited by civil rights violations, you are opening the door for further abuse and mis-use towards other US citizens.

It is true, all of these "precautionary measures" have yielded no ONE SINGLE ARREST CONVICTION of a US citizen in regards to terrorist activities. These laws that are taking away our freedoms aren't stopping terrorist, they are helping them. When you hate capitalism, and you cause that country to start eroding their own freedom on your account, who wins? If another terror attack never happens and he continue with these types of freedom taking laws, who has really won the "war on terror" ?

Citizens Spies Admin Out Watch Brother Big

I think you make some excellent points konquerez.

By the US Government taking away the sort of civil rights Americans have spent their history to obtain, who is really winning this "war on terrorism".

I love it how Bush says these terrorists hate the US way of life. But then his administration erodes the US way of life by removing basic civil liberties.

The extremists groups aren't foolish or stupid enough to believe they can ever take control of America. That is not what they want. If anyone honestly believes that, they shouldn't be in office. But what the terrorists are effectively doing is changing the way ordinary Americans go about their daily lives. And the terrible thing about it is the US Government are the ones who drum up the fear to justify their actions overseas.

Fear is a very powerful political tool. It's about time people woke up to this.

Count the number of times Bush uses the word terrorist in every speech of his now, compared to before September 11. Also count the number of times you hear the action-hero style cliche, good vs evil. It's remarkable language coming from the most powerful man in the world. Every time he uses these terms it acts as a green light to justify whatever comes next.

And unfortunately, it appears one particular religion is copping more than everyone else. People who believe in Islam are being targeted because of their beliefs, not because of their actions. This is religious persecution.

I would say the US is no longer the land of the free. I have no doubts America is an amazing place with beautiful people. It's a world leader is so many fields. But it has lost the mantle of being a model for democracy and freedom. And its international reputation has taken a nose dive, a stark contrast to only a decade ago.

Citizens Spies Admin Out Watch Brother Big

Another problem I have with this is that laws to allow wiretap are already in place. The Federal Wiretap Law, or Title 18, provides for the use of wiretaps in special situation to be addressed on a per person bases. This requires a warrant unless the person is in grave danger or is a threat to national security. Again, its on a per person basis, so to tap our phones with out warrants, we must be considered an immediate threat to national security. That means each of us is a suspect.

https://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/us..._sup_01_18.html

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act provides for tapping phones in and out of the US but still requires a warrant.

https://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/

The problem with all this wire tapping and eaves dropping is that is indeed acts outside of laws created to make sure we only get spied on if there is probably cause to think we did something criminal. These laws are to insure that 1. probable cause for wiretapping exists, and 2. that our rights to privacy in the fourth amendment are not violated. By deliberately acting outside these laws, they insure that they don't have to find probable cause and are in essence, working outside the law. Its an activists worst nightmare, a government that will blatantly run outside its own laws, even the ones designed to protect its people.

Big Brother Watch Out: Us Admin Spies On Citizens

I will only say this once, and I am not going to debate it at all. This is my opinion.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with the wiretapping that the NSA has been doing. Having worked in the fringes of the intelligence field while in the USAF, I know what kinds of rules they have in place. So far, the only abuse that I have seen regarding this subject is the rank treason committed first by the people who leaked this information to the NY Times, then to the Washington Post, then the treason committed by both of those newspapers. The people who leaked the information did it purely as an attempt to harm the President of the United States, and his administration, as did the newspapers.

By doing this, they told the various terrorist organizations exactly what the United States was doing to stop terrorism, thus negating one of the strongest tools available to fight terrorism. I know that some of the people here believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories about the President, but I KNOW there is a conspiracy among the liberal Left, including the extreme left wing newspapers such as the NYT and the LA Times.

What is particularly telling about this is that the program was in place, long before President Bush. In fact, it was exposed under President Clinton, and the same newspapers and the same left-wing wackos such as Teddy Kennedy not only gave Clinton a pass on it, but praised him for his strategy.

So have all the fun you want criticising the President for his work. None of you can give the slightest hint of how to do a better job, but you sure love to shoot down the people who are putting forth the effort.

When some of the left can offer some real solutions to the terrorist problem (and I do NOT accept the cowardly "pull all US influence out of the Middle East" as a solution), then I might give credence to some of the criticism.

And a hearty THANK YOU to the leftist whiners for making the world more dangerous for us all.

Big Brother Watch Out Admin Spies Citizens

Treason committed by the NYT and the Washington Post?

You are joking right? So it is treason when a newspaper uncovers a blatant breach of civil rights that embarrasses a right-wing administration, but good reporting when these pesky newspapers do it to the Democrats? What about uncovering CIA operatives, is that also treason?

I"m sorry, but a newspaper is not bound by some ridiculous notion of patriotism where it should ignore the truth for good old Uncle Sam. This is a very important breach of civil rights which the US people ought to know.

And if Bush didn't even introduce it, why is it so embarrassing?

This wire-tapping business is a disgrace. The reason is because it is so arbitrary. Anything and anyone can be a threat to national security if the person wielding the power thinks so. This process has no transparency and it will surely be abused.

I don't think anyone in this community could possibly do a worse job than Bush.

Do you know what cowardly is. It's when you have the world's biggest military by a country mile and you tell it to invade small countries, killing thousands of people, destroying all its infrastructure and then handing all the reconstruction contracts to your crony mates. That is about as cowardly as you can get. Cowardly is when you Shock and Awe, indiscriminately annihilating everything in sight. Cowardly is when you sit on your bum in Washington, having avoided all opportunities to do military service when you had to, and putting the lives of other young men and women at risk for some bloody oil. Cowardly is using September 11 and terrorism to justify every disgusting crime against humanity you cast during your tenure as President. It's also when you hide behind disgraceful lies such as WMDs to make an excuse for your invasion.

If all US influence had left the Middle East, would the US be a terrorist target? Here's a better idea, let's go around acting like the school bully and bash everyone we don't like. Of course we won't hurt the terrorist we are mates with. We will just bash the "evil" ones and we will bash them real good until they get the message. What a load of rubbish. You don't solve terrorism with terrorism, didn't we learn this in junior school?

Since Bush became president, the world has become infinitely more dangerous. Last time I checked Bush was about as right-wing as you could get.

Most people in the media would argue the NYT and Washington Post are very right-wing rags.

Edited: arvhic on 17th May, 2006 - 6:10am

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The Scariest Thing about Living in the United States:

It is the growing capability of the U.S. Government to monitor all our activities and record them for future reference. As the country gets more totalitarian, more and more people will get caught in the web Ref. Source 4