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Can God Not Do Certain Things? - Page 3

Maybe I'm extremely ignorant in saying this, but my opinion is that God can do anything within the laws of the universe or physics, whatever wording you prefer, but... as for intervening in humanity, He chooses not to, even though He could, because it would counter our free agency.

For instance, one man uses his free agency and kills another man. The victim did not choose to die, so why did God allow the murder to happen? Because if God had intervened, the murderers free agency would have been denied.

So, why didn't God intervene and allow the victim to live instead of die? This wouldn't have denied the murderer his free agency, so why didn't God let the victim live?

I can't answer that last question, other than that the victim's death may serve a greater purpose than if he had lived.

Things Do God Can

I personally have trouble with OMNIPOTENCE of God, because by definition if God is bound by something or law he is not omnipotence. So we either have to reject omnipotence, or that God is bound by law or come up with different language to describe such ideas.

I am working this out in my head. But I have trouble with the idea of Law being maintained by God. Or the idea that I have seen in this post of God ceasing to be God, if he breaks some cosmic law. I understand that this comes from Skousen's atonement ideas, but they do not answer all the questions regarding law. (In fact his ideas really cause more problems then they solve on this subject of law.)
I for one do not understand how he or others gets law out of Alma 41 and 42. Where does Alma talk about law? He talks about justice, but does justice equal law? For Skousen it does perhaps it is because he is a lawyer and related such ideas to modern law.
But if we look at the Hebrew idea of Justice the idea of justice is not what we tend to think of it to be. Justice is more related to the word Charity or social justice, or better yet restoration. Alma an ancient jew himself, This is the Idea that Alma is talking about. He defines justice as restoring one to his former self. See Alma 41; 1-3. Thus Alma's justice means to restore one to his former self or a restoration of all things. That is what is meant by Justice. Remember Alma is an ancient Jew under the Old law. Clearly he is thinking in terms of the covenant with Israel and God, where the covenant is that if Israel will follow God and God will be their God and give them a land of inheritance. Thus in Ancient Israel's covenant language the justice of God would be for God to restore Israel to its blessings and for Him to be there God. That is what justice means in the Hebrew. Thus as Alma says if God does not maintain Justice (his side of the covenant) He would cease to be God. Or in other words if he does not keep the covenant or restore it he would not be there God. This is right out of the covenant language of the old testament. Not some cosmic idea of a cosmic law that would make God to cease.

Thus as Alma alludes in order for Justice to be met-the restoration of all things, or the restoration of the covenants. however because of Man's carnal state he sins and thus he cannot be justifies or brought back into the state of justice or restoration unless there is intervention. God must make atonement or give man the opportunity to repent. He must forgive or bring Mercy upon his people. Thus mercy does not rob justice(which means God restores the blessing of the covenant upon us.) rather Mercy is the way in which God's justice is brought to its fullness.
God's justice by the ancient idea is god's ability to fulfill his side of the covenant promises to us, and that is done through the atonement of Christ through repentance and mercy. Through these means he restores us to celestial glory and he remains our God and his justice is satisfied. Remember Justice is not interested in punitive punishment which our society equates with justice, but rather a end result or restoration of what was once. Thus once we are restored to our proper selves god's justice is done.

So as you can see I have a hard time accepting the idea scripturally that there are cosmic laws that prevent God doing things. Alma in my mind and my understanding of Hebrew does not talk about a cosmic law of some sorts but rather he is using typical Hebrew language to describe God's plan of salvation. Now that is not to say that this is absolute or anything like that, but I personally do not see much evidence to the contrary scripturally. But that is my opinion.

Can God Not Do Certain Things? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Have you come to an answer yet, or are you still trying to understand?

Page 3 Things Do God Can

First we LDS do not use the theological term Omnipotent as the rest of Christianity. (we tend to do this a lot with theological terms.) Thus we mean different things. By theological terms LDS do not believe that God is Omnipotent. A God that is all powerful or absolute in power and here is why.

We read in the scriptures and in the King Follet sermon that God did not create the intelligences. They are co-eternal with God. Thus in order for God to have absolute power or be Omnipotent, he would have to had created them. How can you have all power when you did not create all things. That means that in their basic form, intelligence are independent of God because the co-existed with him from the beginning.
In the same vein, we LDS also say that God organized the world and do not believe in the notion of ex nihilo (meaning creation out of nothing.) Thus as theologians say, if God has all power being Omnipotent, then he must have had to create the world out of nothing, because if something was there before God or existed independently of God he would not have absolute power or be Omnipotent. This is why the creation is such a big deal between us and most of Christianity. (see See elder Hollands conference talk about other faiths from a year or two ago.)

Thus looking at it through theology, God is not Omnipotent, but rather he is what is called maximal in power, meaning that he has more power then any other being. Thus we can say that he is God, and he is still progressing. He has maximal power that is sufficient to save us. His grace is sufficient for all man. Meaning he has enough to save all man.

With this in mind, we can now come to the problem of evil, which we as LDS have a easier time with. The reasoning goes, if God has all power and he is a moral being, then how can he allow such bad and immoral things happen if he has the power to stop it? In other terms if I see a murder take place and I having the power to prevent it and I do not, am I immoral? I would say yes that is an immoral act.

Some may say that God does not stop some immoral acts because it serves a higher law or morality. However, the problem with this is that by doing so he is still violating a moral law in order to archive a higher one and the scriptures say that a sin is a sin. A good example of this is Robin Hood. Although he stole from the rich to give to the poor, he still is immoral because he stole, even though the immoral act supported another higher moral choice. Thus if God allowed sin and evil to happen to serve a higher purpose then he is still committing an immoral act.

There is only 2 ways out of this that I can see. Once way is to say then that evil and sin do not exist, thus what we preceive to be sin and evil is our own standard and not Gods.
The second way out of this is to say that God is not omnipotent, rather he cannot stop certain acts. It is not that he does not choose too, (again we would be stuck with the dilemma above.) Rather he cannot.
I think this has merit because he did not create us (intelligences). We have an existence independent from God, we co-existed with him per the king Follet discourse. Thus at some level God has no power over us, and I think this is at the level of choice of free agency. Thus if we choose to be immoral God does not have the power to change us. Thus his power is limited.

Of course this has is problems as well, and it does not escape the problem of evil completely, but it is where I am with the problem.

As far as Law goes, I think that Skousen and others are thinking of law in the wrong context. (And the atonement for that matter.) First I feel that the atonement has nothing to do with the payment of sin. Rather it has all to do with bringing us back into a relationship with God. Thus I reject the legal idea of law and atonement. I see law/ justice more in the Hebrew covenant role. See my posts above.

I also think that the Father did suffer our sins through Christ. This does not mean that I believe in the trinity. What I mean by this is that the Father feels and experiences everything that Jesus does because the are one. (not physically) So what Christ feels the Father feels. Thus Christ was our intermediary with the Father. Through Christ we will one day expereince what Father experiences, and through Christ the Father experiences what we expereince. That is the at-one-ment with God. So the Father is more involved with this life then we may think.

Things Do God Can

Isiah53

As you say, we as a Church, may have a disagreement with the rest of the Christian world on the definition of Omnipotent, but I am not sure that I agree with you on some of the points. I am of the belief that God is omnipotent in that He has all the powers, and authority to act as God and that he does not progress in these powers.

What do you mean by progressing?
I think that he possesses all of the power, per say, that he will ever have and can not increase in his power (He is infinitely powerful to act as God). He may continue in the process of building worlds and peopling them, but I am of the opinion that his "power" is not progressing, and he possesses all of the power that he needs to accomplish all of his works in the present as well as the future.

Fortunately we humans aren't the ones who are the God of this world. If the church believed as you have stated above, then God is only waiting to gain enough power to destroy wickedness, as he has stated he will do at the Second Coming and at the end of the Millennium. I truly believe that He has all power to stop all wickedness today if he so chose.

Are you really saying that God cannot stop a murderer from acting if it be his will? That would imply then he has less power then a mere man who can stop a murderer with a gun. And are you saying that if he has the power and does not stop it then he is an immoral being?

Those two interpretations are equally disturbing to me. He had the power in the Book of Mormon to destroy entire cities, He had the power to kill the evil priests of Baal, and he has the power to strike dead anyone he chooses (though I believe he does not do this that often.) He has all power with regards to our lives and to this world.

We have numerous statements by prophets that state infatically that God is Omnipotent. President Hinkley declared:

So he has the power to stop all evil from happening, but he has chosen, for a time, not to do so.

2 nephi 2 I believe explains why he does not stop evil, even though he could do so at this very minute.

and why is there an opposition in all things:

in verse 21 we see the nature of mortal life.

in verse 27 the culmination of why God does not stop every evil act.

Why does it bother you so much, that God is willing to allow evil in the short term,so that men can be infinitely blessed in the Long term? It seems that this is what the entire plan of Salvation is about.

Men can choose to follow God or ignore him. I can see your point that God cannot stop someone from feeling the desire to sin, but I would disagree with the assessment that God cannot stop the act of sin (an act that would seem pretty easy for a God) or stop the sinner to continuing to teach sin to his posterity. He has that power and has shown it in the scriptures. He just does this at his discretion and does not do so on a regular basis.

As to your interpretation of the atonement, I cannot dispute it, as I do not have a concrete opinion on that aspect of the equation (though I feel that there is an aspect of payment in the atonement that involves Christ taking on our sins, but I am not sure of the mechanism).

Can God Not Do Certain Things?

Well we do not know he did not create intelligence because they are co-existence with God. Thus he does not have all power by this deduction of logic.

Well we can debate what progression means, but I am not sure that this is the thread for that. However I think that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and many others would disagree with this statement. I think the King Follet discourse would show this. However you seem to follow on McConkie's ideas, (which I think is dead wrong.) Just because God has all the power to do his work does not mean he has absolute power. Rather maximal. You have not shown me in logic how you prove this and solve the problem of evil. This is a very protestant and Calvinistic view of God not so traditional LDS view point. Again we are talking theology here not belief.

I am not following you on this comment. I am not seeing your logic. I am not sure how destroying the wicked is an issue. I am talking about the basic problem of evil. (It is a basic theological problem and taking about God's power can't be done without talking about it's implications.) The problem is if how does one reconcile that God is moral if he allows immoral things to happen in the world if he has all power to stop it. One way to solve this to some degree is to say that God does not have the power to take away ones free agency. Thus he does not have all power. Remember he co-exists with intelligences he did not make them, Lehi tells us that what separates intelligences from matter is their ability to "act upon" or in other words free agency. Thus is God co-exists with them then he cannot change what makes them intelligence which is free agency therefore God cannot control ones free agency.

Again this is the problem of evil you have not shown logical or theological why this is not plausible. How then is it immoral for me to stop a murder when I can, yet not for God? Are you saying that my standards of morality higher then God's or that my morality is not from God? You still have not addressed how one can escape this dilemma. As far as god destroying cities well that is another discussion all together. I would infer that he probably did not do such things, that is what we call religious propaganda. (We can save that for another time.)

Again Pres. Hinkley is not using Omnipotent in a theological way. I am using it in a theological way. I think he would agree in the theological way that he does not believe God is omnipotent. I do not think you do either. Simply because if you believe God organized the elements when he created the world you do not believe he is omnipotent. Perhaps if you get time pick up and read Blake T Osslers' books on LDS theology. This is the best available stuff out there on this subject.

I am not sure how you feel that 2 NE. Supports your idea? First it is opposition IN all things. Not TO all things. Thus this opposition is in all of us. This is not saying that there is a ying or yang, or good vs. Bad. Rather that we all have this opposition in us, in other words free agency. What does this say about God being omnipotent?

Because I see it everyday in my life. It is a real problem that affects me, my family and my community. Do I not have a moral obligation to understand what others feel and are experiencing? I believe this is a moral obligation that we all have. I am trying to understand God, and evil's place in this world. Like I have said this is a classic problem of evil.
Now with that said this does not mean that I do not have Faith in God. I still have faith that this is the plan, but that does not negate my moral responsibility to understand. Does this bother you that this is important to me?

Keep digging you will get it as far as a payment goes.

Can God Do Things - Page 3

I suppose it is just a matter of disagreement on doctrine, something that happens quite often even among the brethren. Joseph Fielding Smith Stated:

So I am not sure that we know one way or the other on the increasing nature of God's power and intelligence. We have some of the Brethren state that God is ever increasing in Knowledge and Power while other flatly deny this. Therefore I believe this is one of those points of doctrines that we will have to disagree on.

But I do believe this question is pertinent to the main question: Can God not do certain things? If we do not know if he has limited power and knowledge then we cannot answer this question.

Rather off topic, but... There are some questions that we all must ask to determine God's power over evil Can God stop the wicked from continuing to murder, rape, abuse their fellow man if he wanted to? I would answer yes, as we see evidence of Him stopping people in the past from doing wicked deeds. I do not believe it to be religious propaganda, when God sent the life destroying plagues to Egypt or when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, or even when God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of Salt. Joseph Smith declared many times that God's Judgement was upon the Nations, not just in a allegorical sense, but in a literal sense. Joseph Smith understood well God's power to smite the wicked when necessary, but also understood God's patience with his Children. Joseph Smith understood that God can stop wickedness, but that it was contrary to the Eternal plan to intervene on a regular basis here on earth. If God cannot stop Evil at any time then I cannot worship a God that does not have at least this power. I can understand and Worship a God who has the power to stop evil, but because of a plan (That at times I may not understand) does not intervene at every moment when someone is suffering. Can Man have free agency if God intervenes whenever man abuses that Free agency? Again I would say that we cannot have free will if God intervened every time we abused our free agency, no matter how wicked our acts. I think we have a disagreement on God's power to stop a person or nation from continuing in wickedness. Is human suffering here on earth, in the eternal sense, a bad thing? I believe we should do all in our power to stop Human suffering. But I believe some suffering is necessary and beneficial. When Joseph Smith was in Prison and thought there was not hope he prayed. QUOTE 1 O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?   2 How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries?   3 Yea, O Lord, ahow long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions, before thine heart shall be softened toward them, and thy bowels be moved with compassion toward them?   4 O Lord God Almighty, maker of heaven, earth, and seas, and of all things that in them are, and who controllest and subjectest the devil, and the dark and benighted dominion of Sheol-stretch forth thy hand; let thine eye pierce; let thy pavilion be taken up; let thy hiding place no longer be covered; let thine ear be inclined; let thine heart be softened, and thy bowels moved with compassion toward us. God's Answered in his infinite wisdom: QUOTE 6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can't you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;   7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the bdeep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to chedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.   8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? According to this, there are some possible benefits to mortal suffering (for our experience and good). Why would God rob us of the experiences by saving mankind at every opportunity? If God is immoral if he does not stop evil acts if he has the power to do so, are you saying that God is 1: Not able to stop evil or 2: Is Evil because he has the power to stop evil and has not done so? What about number three: He can stop evil, but has chosen not to intervene because in the eternal scheme of things God knows (Because of his infinite knowledge) that man must be tested and given a chance to draw closer to him, or depart from him. Man had to be given a time to choose, make mistakes, gain redemption throughout the atonement of Christ. If God intervened at every act of evil, Redemption and correction could not be made, because these things can only come through faith and experience. If God intervened, then Man could not progress. It is not a dilemma for me for God to allow evil to happen, when he has every power to stop it. in fact it is comforting to me that God has provided a perfect place to practice free will, even with the negative aspects of mortality. Emotionally it does not always make sense, but in a Logical sense it is a perfect answer (at least in my mind) to why there is evil.

I lean toward God having all power (meaning all Power given to all God's ) and knowledge (there is nothing that God does not know). I know I could be wrong, so I realize that I could have my mind changed.

God's Answered in his infinite wisdom:

According to this, there are some possible benefits to mortal suffering (for our experience and good). Why would God rob us of the experiences by saving mankind at every opportunity?

If God is immoral if he does not stop evil acts if he has the power to do so, are you saying that God is 1: Not able to stop evil or 2: Is Evil because he has the power to stop evil and has not done so?

What about number three: He can stop evil, but has chosen not to intervene because in the eternal scheme of things God knows (Because of his infinite knowledge) that man must be tested and given a chance to draw closer to him, or depart from him. Man had to be given a time to choose, make mistakes, gain redemption throughout the atonement of Christ. If God intervened at every act of evil, Redemption and correction could not be made, because these things can only come through faith and experience. If God intervened, then Man could not progress. It is not a dilemma for me for God to allow evil to happen, when he has every power to stop it. in fact it is comforting to me that God has provided a perfect place to practice free will, even with the negative aspects of mortality. Emotionally it does not always make sense, but in a Logical sense it is a perfect answer (at least in my mind) to why there is evil.

Can God Do Things Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

I need to clarify my position a little bit. Paradoxically, I believe that God is all powerful in all senses(in Knowledge and might), but that he is also limited (Self-limited perhaps?) by eternal laws. This may seem illogical but it is what I believe.

God is governed by law.

But I also believe God is all powerful, because he follows certain laws. So I have to agree with you that there are things God cannot do, but I still believe he is all powerful. How's that for illogical.

Ezra Taft Benson stated the following:

Richard G. Scott also stated.

That is the dichotomy of my belief. God I believe is all powerful, but there are things he cannot do, because of his desire to follow eternal laws.