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Can God Not Do Certain Things? - Page 2

Please don't get testy. I'm not disagreeing with you just to irritate you. I'm attempting to make a point. Read what you wrote... what I just quoted. Look at your word usage. You just said almost exactly what I've been saying. You even used the word "choose". I'll quote it again, "because if he chooses to do them then He would cease to be God" Your own words. Now go back and read what I wrote and you'll find that we are basically saying the same thing.

Now, read these quotes from Encyclopedia of Mormonism by Daniel H. Ludlow:

I bolded and underlined the part about God being self-limiting. He is omnipotent, but there are other forces, as mentioned about, which are co-eternal with God and he must act within those foces. If he ceases to do so, then he ceases to be God (as you said). Being that he is perfect, he would never cease to do so. Thus, in essence, one can say that God cannot do certain things. However, the more accurate view is that God, being God, self limits himself such that he remains God by not doing certain things. He cannot do certain things because he is God and he is perfect and so therefor would not do those things which would cause him to become God.

Offtopic but, I can't say it much clearer than that, so if this isn't clear enough then we shall have to agree to disagree. However, I do want to make it clear that I don't state opinions just to be oppositional or to cause contention. I will state my opinion and then back it up with sources if need be. If I find that my opinion is wrong, I will say so. I will do my best to come to areas of agreement. I am not here to cause trouble, so please don't make such accusations.

Message Edited! JB@Trinidad: Added quote and off topic tags

Things Do God Can

Concerning the actual topic I believe I have stated what I needed to say already, LDS_forever also tried to clarify it some more, posting it twice will not enable further comprehension or enable agreement on your part. If you feel that you need more than this maybe someone else can progress the topic.

Offtopic but, QUOTE (Melodilynn) Please don't get testy. I'm not disagreeing with you just to irritate you. Testy? Irritated? You are making assumptions, you are also continually going into off topics - just stay on the topic itself rather than become involved with emotional play. As I said before, instead of focusing on the last topic you chose to zero in on another due to word play. Moving the topic here was to ensure clarification. My stance here is to make topics clear and dispell confusion caused by no-constructive entries into topics. If you see that as me being testy and irritated then I think you need to read our policy about Constructive posting.

Testy? Irritated? You are making assumptions, you are also continually going into off topics - just stay on the topic itself rather than become involved with emotional play. As I said before, instead of focusing on the last topic you chose to zero in on another due to word play. Moving the topic here was to ensure clarification. My stance here is to make topics clear and dispell confusion caused by no-constructive entries into topics. If you see that as me being testy and irritated then I think you need to read our policy about Constructive posting.

Can God Not Do Certain Things? Studies Doctrine Mormon

My REPLY is so long I'll have to do it in parts. Part II to come AFTER someone replies. Sorry.

I had a similar conversation with a Calvinist the other day as he claimed God is "infinite" in EVERYTHING including physically. I pointed out that you have to play semantics in order to make this true. Obviously God isn't "infinitely" evil, or insane, or stupid, etc; but in order to be totally infinite, you"d have to claim that, otherwise he's not "infinite". In actuality, God is only "Infinite" in "finite" boundaries and limits. He's "infinite" in love, and other character traits, but not in others, making Him essentially "finite" and thus destroying the Calvinistic doctrine of an "infinite God" leaving space for God to possibly even have a finite body (which WE in the church know he does have, though you could technically argue this with semantics as well).

I use this as an example to show that you can't always deal in infinites/ultimatums even with God ("Only a Syth deals in absolutes!" -Sorry, couldn't resist). See, God is all-powerful, but only when you play semantics and define what you mean by omnipotent. As the old point goes: "God can't create a rock so big that even He can't lift it". Obviously God can't do something like that that's inconceivable, so if God can't do something"¦then obviously he's not "omnipotent" to the FULL extent of the meaning (perhaps this is an extreme/ridiculous answer for which better ones could be substituted, but my point is that there are inherently things that make it impossible to fully "omnipotent" unless you redefine the word with boundaries and limits, the same way you have to God being "infinite")

It is all about what is your definition, or more appropriately, God's definition of a word. For example, we used to think that endless and eternal punishment meant it goes on forever. The Lord Clarified this in the D&C by explaining that "eternal punishment" doesn't mean it never ends, it simply means "God's punishment" because He is endless and eternal, though the punishment does have an end to it. He said it that way in order for it to work upon our hearts the way it should"¦be "God-fearing" if you will. God is the ultimate psychologist/social engineer. He knew saying it that way would have a certain reaction upon us. Thus, your points are well met"¦God is Omnipotent, and he's not, simultaneously. He can do anything, and yet He can't. He could do something evil and against His "nature" and yet His nature won't permit it, meaning He will never do it. He has the power to do so, but He won't, and thus He is only limited by his own self-control (which is why we have certain commandments for us to practice self-control).

This explanation may be long, but I want to explain clearly why I believe the "can't" issue is a self-control one by using reason and logic. I hope you don't mind (I am new here, this is my first post, and I plan to stay for a long, long time now! I love what I"ve seen, and been searching for a forum like this for YEARS! Thanks to whoever invited me!). I have pondered this a lot and prayed about it, and while I don't believe I am fully correct in this theory, I believe a lot of this still is from the things I have learned and felt.

Let us start with Lucifer. We know that Satan has some power (though not nearly as strong as God). We know by Latter Day revelation that Satan has some form of "Priesthoods and powers" (Disclaimer before someone bites my head off: Although this is generally only talked about in the temple, I am free to say that here because the same verbiage can be found in old discourses, talks etc by early leaders and is publicly released knowledge as well, though rarely talked about). So, Satan has power, priesthoods, etc and is sometimes referred to as "The God of THIS world." Well, does his authority, power and Priesthood come from God? When we talk about priesthood, we generally refer to the power/authority to act in God's name, but that is not the only definition of priesthood. Satan does not act in God's name, and even if he tried to, is anyone going to suggest that Satan uses His Priesthood for "Evil" and God submits to these demands of Satan to use His own power for Evil? That would suggest God is simultaneously both entirely Good & entirely Evil at the same time to use His own power to HELP Satan with His desires. I could go on with this, but we will move forward for now. The question must be asked"¦if Satan's power is entirely independent of God (God allows it, but isn't giving it to him or doing it for him), then that means "priesthood" or the powers of the Universe aren't inherently in God either. We know that even "God uses Natural Means to accomplish His purposes". Thus this power in the Universe must come from something/somewhere else because otherwise God is vicariously committing Evil through Satan by doing as He commands (when we do something with the priesthood, we say that miracle/act was done by God, not us"¦we were just the instrument, so in the same way, if all power is from God, then Satan is God's instrument to do evil, and this cannot be, or He wouldn't be God). I would like to be more clear and straightforward, but this is going to be too long already so I"m trying to be quick and short but still clear"¦maybe this should be a different thread (if that's so, a mod will choose to separate it), but it will also be VERY relevant to this one when I finish explaining.

OK, so that means that if Satan has his power from elsewhere, and god potentially does too"¦then we can assume that this power is learned. After all the Lord is VERY emphatic in the scriptures about knowledge being extremely important! Even Joseph Smith talked about how it will take some of us a LONG time after this life before we "learn" everything we need to in order to eventually become exalted. Thus reason claims that these powers are taught/learned. You LEARN how to become a God if you are worthy of the knowledge. We are being tested to see who will use this power for Good. If you pass, you go to the Celestial Kingdom (the Lord's REAL university) to learn how to become a God. If you fail, you essentially cannot be fully trusted and are put in a prison more or less. A REALLY REALLY NICE prison, but lets face it, there's no progression, there's no escape, you can't go anywhere or visit anywhere. It's a prison for those who can't be trusted to use the "Priesthood" powers in a "GOOD" or righteous way. That's all. The Lord loves them, but He can't trust them with all that power because they would wreak destruction or who knows what else could happen...the Lord just knows they wouldn't obey Him, or they wouldn't follow the laws completely, or accept truth and goodness to the full extent, and thus they are a liability.

OK, back to Lucifer"¦we know he was a "Son of the Morning" (notice it calls him "A" son of the morning, not "THE" Son of the Morning, indicating it is a title that others also held), which was a position or a title given to some of the GREATEST leaders in the premortal life. We know that at SOME point Lucifer was one of the best, most righteous and obedient children of our Father. We can reasonably assume that it was because of this, that the Father chose to TEACH him, and others certain powers. Obviously God is more powerful, and more efficient with this power, and more experienced and more knowledgeable so they could never match Him, but reason claims that it was from God that Lucifer learned his "Powers and Priesthoods", after all, he was one of the most trusted spirits that ever existed at some point and held great power and prestige (he did convince a third group of heaven to LEAVE Their own Father"¦their God"¦that's pretty influential and trusted). We can assume that Jesus and others (maybe Michael/Adam) were also taught this power and how to use it independently of God, if Satan learned how to use it independently of God.

So, we can logically assume that because Satan has power independently of God, then so do the other "Gods", meaning those who have received their Celestial Diploma of Exaltation and graduated to "Godhood" which is basically a title of power, authority and respect. We know Adam, Noah, Abraham and others have entered into their exaltation (perhaps they were even quicker than most because they began their schooling before this life as a "Son of the Morning""¦who knows).

Someone reply so I can post Part II and get to the point.


Edited: Tidejwe on 7th Apr, 2006 - 11:03am

Page 2 Things Do God Can

God cannot be arbitrary in His dispensing justice and fairness. If He were to do so, He would cease to be God. Now, He's not going to, because He knows how to avoid it. But it could happen:

Notice it says, IF God THEN He would cease to be God.

God's POWER comes from His HONOR. The honor which He holds among the intelligences of the universe.

Message Edited! Persephone: Learn how to use the quote tags so that your words are not mixed in with those of others. See our Constructive Posting Policy.

Things Do God Can

I certainly wouldn't debate the power of God. I also wouldn't debate that He exercises that power to subscribe Himself to Celestial laws. Whatever it is possible to do in the universe, The Book of Abraham tells us that there is no thought that enters the heart of God except He will do it. So anything that it is in the nature of God to do, He has absolute power to do.

Can God Not Do Certain Things?

It is funny that you say you will not debate yet make statements of debatable position.

So, what are you saying then, since with the above I could then ask what is the nature of God to do? You may say to keep the law of the Universe. Then I might say then since it is not in the nature for Him to disobey the law of the Universe then does he still have absolute power?

Can God Do Things - Page 2

In part you are right, but when one receives a calling in heaven, it's not like in church. The office of the Holy Ghost is one that can only be fulfilled when Christ says, "it's done." Where here on earth an office may be held by several individuals in the span of 10 yrs. A calling in heaven is more long term.

Can God Do Things Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

"Then I might say then since it is not in the nature for Him to disobey the law of the Universe then does he still have absolute power?"

I guess the best answer I have for your question is a question: Because someone goes through their entire life without telling a lie, does that mean they have any less power to do so?

In "Jesus the Christ" James Talmage makes a sort of parable of this and comes to the conclusion that a man who does not have lying in his nature simply cannot lie. It is not because he has not been granted the power or agency to lie, but because he has so conscribed himself to telling the truth that a lie never enters his heart and therefore never becomes an action.

So, one might ask, if God has such a nature that certain things never enter His heart and therefore never become His actions, does that strip Him of what we would consider absolute power?

I, personally, don't think so. I think that the scriptures are clear in teaching that God has all power. What I find so useful about that knowledge is seeing which powers God chooses to exercise. What better way to learn His nature than to realize that every power and attribute we can and cannot imagine are available to Him and then to study those which He has assumed?