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Maybe We Are Not Worthy Mormons? - Page 3

Name: Michael
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Title: Not worthy?

Comments: Farseer:

Perhaps you are right, but I think that I would describe it differently. Instead of "Pockets of stronger saints here and there," I think that I would describe it more like a sprinkling of stronger Saints leavening the whole.

I agree with this assessment, but I suspect that there may be something else going on as well. I can see where the Lord might want to withdraw certain things from the temple ceremony in order to avoid casting pearls before swine. The swine are the ones that you mentioned who were not comfortable with certain things in the temple ceremony.

No, not because of any wrongdoing on the part of "Worthy" priesthood men, but because of the wrong doing of certain "Unworthy" men, such as one who was found molesting many of the little girls in primary. Every once in a while there is a goat among the sheep.

I disagree. That has not been my experience.

Well, it may depend upon what you mean by "Christians." If you are talking about Protestants, then I think that you may be right.

Well, if you are talking about Protestants, then I might agree with you. If you are talking about members of the Church, then I would not speak in such broad generalizations. I see both kinds of members in the Church--good and bad. As Brigham Young said, the gospel net gathers all kinds of fish.

Mormons Worthy Not We Maybe

Name: Michael
Country:

Comments:

That is right. It is very similar to when the people pressed Moses for a bill of divorcement. No such thing existed, yet he was 'forced' into having it because the people were not worthy enough to make marriage work.

I think that you are right, as far as you go, but I think that there are other factors involved. For one thing, many of those who were practicing plural marriage were doing so unrighteously. They were degrading a very sacred and holy principle. Plus, the principle of plural marriage had already served it's purpose. It had helped to spur the growth of the young Church while it was more or less isolated way out in the solitary, western, American desert. It had also served as a lightening rod, to attract all the attention of the anti-Mormon persecutors, just as a red cape serves to distract the attention of the bull from the matador behind it, so that when the Lord withdrew the principle, it left the persecutors with nothing else to focus their anger on. So, because only a very small minority were practicing the principle anyway, and even many of those who were practicing it were dishonoring a very sacred and holy principle, and because it had already served its purpose anyway, the Lord just decided to take it away. And in so doing, He left those who had focused all their fury on the principle of polygamy for so many years without any excuse to carry on their persecution of the Saints. The Lord was fighting our battles for us, alright, but in a way that the fundamentalists totally missed.

This is a minor point, because it is really just a choice of words, but instead of saying that the Saints did not accept the United Order, I would say that it proved to be beyond their capacity to live.

I think that is what the Lord always does. He doesn't ask us to do that which He knows we are not capable of doing, any more that I would assign a two-year-old to drive a car.

The Church issued a statement in 1972 counseling members against drinking cola drinks, but it was just "Counsel" and not a commandment.

If you are talking about polygamy, I think that we have to acknowledge that it is a divine principle, but a part of that principle is the fact that it cannot be practiced righteously without the authorization from the one man on earth who holds the keys of that power. That is clear from D&C 132.

Maybe We Are Not Worthy Mormons? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Name: Michael
Country:

Title: Not worthy?

Comments: Nighthawk:

God speaks of sacrifices, oblations, incense, new moons and sabbaths, and feasts. He even talks about simple prayers. So, what is he talking about? All of these things were the normal worship patterns of ancient Israel. So, what are OUR normal worship patterns?

Sacrament meetings. Sunday School. Priesthood meetings. Relief Society. Meetings for this. Meetings for that. Time away from home for meetings. Time away from service - for meetings. Got someone in the ward who needs food desperately? Have a meeting. So what if it takes two weeks to get around to getting food to that family. It is more important to have that meeting first.

I don't think that meetings are what the Lord was upset about. He was talking about sacrifices, oblations, incense, new moons and sabbaths, and feasts. But he was the One who had commanded these things, so why would He be against them? It was because the Jews were not performing these things with their heart. They had become hollow acts. Does this apply to us? Do we take the sacrament as an act of simple habit without us really doing so with our hearts? Or do we really take the sacrament with our whole heart involved in the ordinance? Each of us will have to answer for ourselves. Or we can judge others, as so many on this site are so fond of doing.

"For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward." (D&C 58:26)

We should definitely seek out our ancestors and do the work for them, but what about those who went before who have no descendents in the Church to do their work for them? Would it not be an act of charity on their part to help them with something that they cannot do for themselves?

I'm not sure that this verse really applies to us. If it does apply to the last days, then I think that it may apply more to Catholics, who think that you can do anything you want as long as you go to confession and confess to the Priest, who can then give you absolution, or to the Protestants, who also believe that you can do anything you want, because as long as you confess Christ, you are saved. These are the ones that I believe have their hands covered with blood.

I agree. I think that we had every right to go after those who were responsible for 9-11. Other wars, however, are certainly suspect.

As I recall, in that war we were defending Kuwait. I think that wars where we defend smaller nations that are not capable of defending themselves are justifiable.

If we were defending a smaller nation, such as Kuwait, then I think it was an act of charity on our part and could be seen as defensible on that basis.

My son and I frequently comment upon how ineffectual those things are. They never seem to accomplish anything.

The body that was aborted was not hers.

But not all. Like I say, I think that going after the ones who were responsible for killing 3,000 innocent men, women, and children on 9-11 is completely justifiable. I was never in favor of going into Iraq, regardless of who was in office at the time.

I don't think that is by design. It's just harder to get evidence against the higher ups, just it was to find any evidence against Al Capone for so many years.

I seriously doubt that these refer to either the Church or our leaders.

I still don't think that verse 10 is talking either about us or our leaders. I don't think that there is any way possible for anyone to think that we are in any way comparable to Sodom and Gomorrah--our country, yes, I think is comparable to Sodom and Gomorrah, but not the Church.

Those things are wrong? Okay, maybe I eat more than I should, but I don't drink, and I only got married once and I'm sorry, but I absolutely refuse to repent for that.

Actually, I think that many members of the Church do consider those things. I, for one, feel that I am too judgmental and unforgiving. Those are just a couple of things that I need to work on, and I am trying to do so.

I have always done that and have seldom gotten into trouble for it. Many years ago, I was told that my Bishop was trying to find some way to get me excommunicated because I didn't believe in the principle of unconditional love. He went to the Stake President about it, who went to the Regional Rep., who told him that he couldn't do anything to me because there were general authorities who agreed with me. Suddenly, my Bishop's attitude toward me changed, over night. I could have and did tell him that there were general authorities that agreed with me, but he wouldn't listen to me. If a Regional Rep. Said it, then he could believe it. And then a few years ago, I was released as teacher of our High Priests' group because I did not always stick to the manual, which is fine, because as a member of the High Priests' group I can sit in meeting and raise my hand and say anything I want, whether it is in the manual or not.

Which may be justifiable. Brigham admitted that he had been wrong to teach the Adam-God doctrine, so if he even admitted that he had been wrong to teach it, then that leaves everyone who teaches it today without excuse, doesn't it? And John Taylor's revelation on celestial marriage is almost universally misinterpreted, so that what people teach based on that is not what the Lord actually said. So, yes, I can see why people would be excommunicated for teaching those things.

If you are talking about polygamy, the reason I don't practice it is because the Lord has clearly said that we cannot practice it without authorization from the one man on earth who holds the keys of that power--not because I feel that I am unworthy.

I can imagine a greater condemnation--taking upon yourself to practice polygamy without authorization from the one man on earth to whom the Lord has given the keys of that power.

No, quite the contrary. It means that I care so much about it that I will not practice it without authorization from the one man on earth who holds the keys of the power today.

No, they are trying to get us to live the things that we should be living right now, like not judging and being forgiving, etc. When we get some of these more basic things down, then maybe we will be ready for something more. As it is now, the Lord can't reveal more to us because even what the Prophet Joseph Smith gave us sails right over our heads. When we are ready, the Lord will give us more, but finding fault with our Church leaders is not the way to get ready to receive more. If our leaders were to give us more in our current condition, many of us would probably judge it, find fault with it, and reject it anyway, so it would not do the Lord any good to reveal more to us at this time.

Some things, yes, but let's be sure that we are not misinterpreting what Isaiah meant first.

Page 3 Mormons Worthy Not We Maybe

Name: Michael
Country:

Title: Not worthy?

Comments: Pandora:

By that reasoning, everyone should be allowed into the temple, because "We can never be totally worthy." Maybe not, but at least a degree of worthiness is necessary.

Excuse me, but aren't you one of the ones who is constantly complaining about how wicked and unrighteous the members of the Church and its leaders are? And now you are saying that it is not their unworthiness that explains why we don't receive more than we do? Which is it? Are they unworthy or not?

If that were what really motivated our Church leaders, then we would have rescinded the principle of plural marriage long before we did, and we would have given the priesthood to the blacks long before we did. The reason that we did not do so was because we did not care about our image in the eyes of the world.

If that's what you think, then you don't really listen to the Conference talks, do you? Because when I listen to the Conference talks, I hear spiritual messages that could do me and probably just about everyone else in the Church a lot of good spiritually, if we would just put those things into practice.

I think that is one of our Articles of Faith--"We believe in meetings."

I don't know to whom they are in second place. They are not second place to me.

I have to admit that I sometimes feel that there is a kind of disconnect between what the Brethren in Salt Lake want to have implemented and the way that things are actually implemented at the local level. For example, when we first went to the block scheduling plan, the Brethren had originally said that they felt that it would give us more time to spend with our families, but unfortunately, at the local level, it seems as though the local leaders see it as an opportunity to have more meetings.

Ouch! Thankfully, I don't feel that way, but I do feel that when converts (whom the Prophet Joseph Smith referred to as "Young members") often bring many of their old ways with them from their former church when the join the LDS Church.

I have never been "Scolded" for going too deep, although I have had people who disagreed with my interpretations. As I see it, that is the real problem--it's not that people go to deep, it's that they misinterpret what earlier brethren taught and its application to our day. For some reason, there seems to be an attitude among some people that the earlier brethren were always right. I got news for you, they were not always right. They were just flat wrong about many things, and they often contradicted the scriptures.

Well, you have to understand the problem that we face in this Church. At any given point in time, most of the members of the Church are converts who are still trying to learn the gospel, so it forces the Brethren to teach to the lowest common denominator. Anyone who wants to go beyond the basics that the recently converted members are learning must necessarily make to the effort to progress on his own, and we have been given the tools to do that. Those who do that should just be understanding of the recent converts and where they are in their spiritual progression, and stop complaining and get busy studying the gospel on their own.

Mormons Worthy Not We Maybe

Rather off topic, but...
I have not been around lately, computer crashed an have been limping along, using a older one, trying to take care of of more pressing matters. To days things thinned out, so taking the time here.

If you read the scriptures and read the words of the Prophets of this recent age, you will see that the Church will in time, as the world grows more dark, will itself fall into apostasy itself and need cleansed. The Lord did say, he would cleanse his own house, before he did the world.

If you want evidence, I guess I can look it up in time, but I have some mental memory limitations and I find it much easier to just use the Spirit, and concept rather then tons of evidence, unless necessary. Those of a like spirit will know of the things which I speak; I like the idea of KISS, keep it simple, and you can apply which S word you want, my wife does not like the one I most often use, she prefers silly.

I am in communication with a few other High Priests, that see the slide happening. I would not say there are pockets, but has been said, the more righteous and more in tune, if I can say that, are scattered throughout the Church. We are in a time, parallel to the Book of Mormon prior to the Christ first time on earth.

We need to come out of Babylon, as it says, we are instead slowing taking on more and more of Babylon. One of the greatest things I see, that is affecting the Saints, if the living of the Word of Wisdom, in the D & C. Last years Relief Society and PH manual was quite clear, along with some things I read from a few more of the more recent later Church Presidents. That the Saints are basically missing the mark, and not receiving the light they need, because they are not living the do's of the Word of Wisdom, most just live the don'ts and some not so well with that.

If you read the warnings, all flesh should be consume sparingly. Sect. 89: 12, verse 13, used only in times of winter, or of cold or famine. And taking of wild game should only be done in time of famine and excess of hunger, see 89:15, referring to the bottom of verse 14.

Then verse 4, he warns if the evil designs of those in the last days. Most of the highly process foods we have, are designed to taste good, and addict you to eat more and buy more, but not feed the body and mind, leaving you weaker to the influences of the body and evil intents of others. This warning is more then just about drugs, it applies to all things that affect us.

I sadly see my older family members, friends and Church members, not all that old, succumbing to cancer, heart attacks or living with disabling health issues needless for decades. They live the don't, but what of the do's, they seem lost in the noise that the world hits us with. All of this is by choice, like all things in the Gospel are.

I find you get the blessing by walking with God, not following the crowds or the majority, or your friends or you spouse.

I hear members comments on lessons dealing with the Holy Ghost and Revelation, for some it is, I am working on it, some I remember some years ago, some last month, but if we are really in tune, it should be all of the time 24/7 Any time I think of spiritual things, I feel the Spirit, sitting here, reading my scriptures, in Church, talking to someone, member or not about spiritual, positive or helpful things.

I find the greatest issue is, Saints are not willing or able to hear the Lord, and if they do, they don't want to listen to what is said. I don't think most are even aware they do it, unless in tune enough to hear the spirit. The more we listen and do, the more often and more freely God speaks with us, through the Holy Ghost and Administering Angels. It is like a water line, the more you do, the more the valve of opened up, the more you don't, the more the valve is closed, until you can't hear at all. It is not so much about righteousness, but about being open, and listening and following what the Spirit tells you. It can become like a WiFi, always on and accessible. I find that much of what is in the world, is a copy of what exists in Gods realm.

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Maybe We Are Not Worthy Mormons?

Michael:

I love the use of your hyperbole but really what's your point?

In the two examples given, the Church literally had no choice but to abandon plural marriage (if not, it would have been the END of the Church as we know it) and give back the Priesthood to our black brethren (or face more political and social pressure that could have ended with the Church losing its tax exempt privilege). In both scenarios, they did what was expected of them due to increasing social pressure. Now, in the internet era we will see this pressure even stronger.

I don't deny the fact that a lot could be learn from conference. My issue is the disconnection between the General Authorities talks and the local wards. Often times it seems like we are talking about two different types of Churches.

I agree and it's not news for me. I'm an avid Church history researcher and I know what you mean, my issue wasn't that. My issue is the thought of them being wrong and us (present time) being right. My other issue is I can study about Brigham Young as long as the things he said are not controversial such as his typical 19th century view and description of blacks (not criticizing him, I do understand he was a man and shared the common view held at that time).

Maybe We Not Worthy Mormons - Page 3

Things change in the Church, to meet new trends, most to speed the process, and sometimes to drop back some, because the saints, are not lengthening their stride or improving, for a lack of a better way to say it. It seems that some times the General Authorities and the Prophet of the church are like Shepard's/Sheep Dogs herding sheep and just doing what the flock can handle or do. They feed and give us living water and at times, have to herd us back, so we don't stray too far, as they strive to move us from where we are at present, to where God wants us be in the future.


I remember a time in a previous ward, in a somewhat backward more remote ward in Oregon, populated with more simple honest type people, but a little spiritual lacking. The last Bishop we had, and his wife, where somewhat emotional and verbal abusive controllers. I prayed about this, and the Spirit revealed to me, that the members in that area, got what they wanted and needed at that time. They offended the few more righteous an spiritually in tune, they were not called for them, but the others who weren't. I have sense read accounts from past General Authorities, and heard in conference talks, that that does happen, and gave reference from Scripture to support the idea.

We have agency, God will not force, but with love and long suffering, try to enlighten us, to find our way to his will. If we are off course or on a side path, more rocky, God is allowing us agency, and herding us along the best he can. We can cannot blame the Master/Sheppard, it is our wills that get in the way.

To draw from this, that we are evil or not worthy is a bit harsh, even God is waiting for the harvest time, to be able to tell the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares, the journey is not over yet.

When I talk to other people and saints face to face, I try not to point a finger in a negative way, unless directed by the Spirit. Normally one should learn to complement a persons efforts for what they have done, even if not up to par.

We have 6 High Priests who call and gather Home Teaching reports for me, to submit to the Church. Some of the times they call after I have submitted them. I just kindly thank them, and say job well done. Knowing that many of them are busy, or older seniors with health and mental issues, and they are trying their best. It has come across in our Church, from Scripture, if we are doing the best we can, then we are being as perfect as we can. That is the same law that God and Christ operate by, they do the same, just they they do it more perfectly. So in essence, we can be perfect like them, in our own realm of existence, gee I hope that made sense.

Maybe We Not Worthy Mormons Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

David:

Are you saying that the Spirit approved of a a bishop being verbally abusive or am I misunderstanding your words? I can't fathom the idea of a bishop being abusive and the Spirit saying it is okay.

That's very nice to hear.