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Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements - Page 2

Karbala said:

He is NOT convinced about it either so as I said before he puts into DOUBT that the Holocaust ever existed:

https://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/05/...ejad_interview/

Clear as water to me.

Statements Ahmadinejad Mahmoud

I apologise for my last question it wasnt very diplomatic.

So Ahmadinejad does NOT deny the holocaust.

Does Ahmadinejad doubt the holocaust ever happened?

Ahmadinejad definitely believes in some sort of mass crime committed against jews and many other groups. Hence further on in the interview the names of certain historians are mentioned eg. Ernst Zündel and Georges Theil both of whom do not deny jews were killed by Nazis but dispute certain things about the holocaust e.g Numbers and Methods This is what I think Ahmadinejad is casting doubt on, numbers and methods.

Numbers:

https://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm
Methods:

https://www.ahmadinejad.ir/en/some-notes/

Again examine Ahmadinejads language. He doesn't DENY certain things surrounding the holocaust e.g. 6 million jews killed and the nature of the camps but expresses DOUBT. I see nothing wrong with this. Of course expressing DOUBT about the killing of Jews during world war 2 is a different matter and that would be crazy.

Now I again repeat my question in a diplomatic tone:
A massive crime was committed against jews by Nazis in World War 2. There are certain Revisionists who dispute some of the details surrounding this event e.g. Numbers and Methods. These people maybe liars, forgerers, misinterpreters or crazy. But what is so threatening about their research that they are banned and locked up?
In the words of Deborah Esther Lipstadt

Now to address Vincenzo

I agree with you. Alas Ahmadinejad is a politician who has an agenda to promote. And of course he will use this holocaust conference to push that agenda.

Actually he already has. It was called "A world without Zionism" where he made his famous "israel should be...."

Again you are correct I agree with you. Not just the creation of Israel but the continuing existence of Israel owes itself in part to the pretext of the holocaust.

No one can deny the Holocaust has played a MAJOR role in the establishment and continuing existence of the occupying zionist regime. This is so obvious I hope I dont have to elaborate.

Actually you cannot. Several Holocaust revisionists have been imprisoned.

Correct again!

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements History & Civil Business Politics

Karbala said:

He DOES NOT confirm it either as you stated.

That's absolutely your personal interpretation. His answer "I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it." is in response to the question if he thinks the Holocaust is just a "myth". NOT about numbers, NOT about methods. Clear as water.

In the same quote I provided, he states:

After reading this quote, do you STILL saying he is speaking about numbers? No! He is actually stating that he would like to know whether the Holocaust took place or not!

I read the quotes you provided which are full of "if" followed by sarcastic remarks. He was CLEAR, he said "Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it." to the question "Spiegel: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth"?". With all due respect, why is it so hard for you to digest the fact that he said that? You are just making your interpretation to suit what you think he meant. Read the quotes again, he was MORE than clear in his answer.

Research has been done extensively on this issue FOR YEARS. Why is the President of Iran so concerned about the numbers and methods? To see if the suffering of millions of people were real? To see what can he use to distort the truth? To "prove" it never existed? What is his agenda on this issue?

ANY person, in my not so humble opinion, who either denies or expresses doubt about the Holocaust, numbers or methods is a disgrace to his religion, country and life.

Page 2 Statements Ahmadinejad Mahmoud

What exactly is the holocaust? We need a definition. Because mine seems to be different from yours.

True I do interpret Ahmadinejads words in a certain way. But I have different reasons other than his statements to suggest he cannot be denying outright or casting doubt on crimes committed against the european Jewry.

Research has been biased as Holocaust revisionists in the style of people like Zündel haven't been given much freedom. The reason Ahmadinejad raises these questions is obvious. He links it with the Palestinian issue and the existence of an occupying Zionist regime which owes a lot to the Holocaust.

You never answered the question I put to you. Why is casting doubt or raising questions on the numbers or methods a disgrace?

Statements Ahmadinejad Mahmoud

Karbala said:

We need a definition? Oh, you want to be technical. Listen, we can be debating for hours on the subject and rationalize it in the way we want, you seem to want to justify the words of Ahmedinejads about the Holocaust (maybe because you are also not sure if it really happened?) I don't know.

Here some definitions since now you are saying your definition is different:

https://www.google.tt/search?num=100&hl=en&...nition&ct=title

As a medical student, you should be aware that the word Holocaust is used WORLDWIDE to describe the above definitions so I do not know why you are saying your definition seem to be different than mine (that is indeed the definition of most part of the world).

I am all ears.

The reason Ahmadinejad raises these questions is indeed obvious. In his twisted but naive mind at the same time, he thinks that if he can prove the Holocaust never existed, then there is no reason for Israel to occupy the land that he thinks belongs to the Palestinians. He is a fool.

Because it has been proven HISTORICALLY the NUMBER of victims and the METHODS they have used to exterminate them. It is a disgrace because is a lack of respect for the victims, their families and the survivors. I have seen back home, people telling me the Holocaust never existed until they met in PERSON an Holocaust survivor. Can you imagine going through HELL and return for some stupid, ignorant, heartless man to put into doubt what you went through? YES, it is a disgrace because every time you are casting doubts about this issue, you are opening wounds that can never heal and as long as they are low human beings whose political agenda is more important than the lives of people...the story CAN be repeated.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements

For In depth Discussion about the Holocaust please see: Iran Questions The Holocaust.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements - Page 2

Since we are playing the semantics game, where is a quote showing that Ahmadinejad believes that there was a "mass killing" of Jews by the Germans? Again, this is purely a game of semantics in order to pick at old wounds. Again, I hardly see what the slaughtered, gased, starved and hung Jews of WWII have to prove to this man. If you yourself are skeptical, please take a trip to Dachau or Auschwitz as I have and go on a cold winter or cool early spring day. Visit the ovens (by the way there are still remains of human bodies in the ovens as it has beeen tested) or nice group showers without running water for nice sobering experience. The phrase, arbeit macht frei, on the entrance gate for the prisoners has a bitter sense of irony as it is translated "work shall set you free" or "work liberates". Actually, Dachau was in US hands from the time it liberated the camp until I belive in the 80's, when it was returned to a unified Germany. Of course, all the conspriacy folks will say that this was a perfectly orchestrated sham by the western world to prop up Zionism.

You have actually asked a few questions and I answered the last one in my previous post. The most recent question is that you cannot discuss the numbers or methods. This is not true again as long as you agree that the Holocaust did happen. The people you are talking about are trying to do very similar things to that of Mr Ahmadinejad. They once again are mistakenly making a direct line of Holocaust to State of Israel. This is just incorrect historically. A designated Jewish area within the state of Palestine was in the works well before the war as far back as 1917 as they were there already. What Germany (who fully admits to the horrors that they inflicted on the Jewish population of theirs as well as from other countries that they invaded). Germany's stance and justly so is that they will not allow a denial of the Holocaust. These people are also playing the same semantics game to get to talk about the creation of the Zionist State. Again, deny the horror and we can slide the argument that the creation of a Jewish state was wrong too. So if you acknowledge the holocaust, the discussion of numbers should be probably within 20-30% of the official number because if you go much lower, then you are getting fairly close to denying the Holocaust. If you want to talk about methods, that is fine as long as they end up with the right numbers and in all fairness show the barbarian tatics of their host, otherwise, you are beginning to deny the Holocaust.

Rather off topic, but... Probably need to tell Factual that Iran does not question the Holocaust. They just are not convinced of it.

This discussion and requirements for exact definitions is becoming as humorous as Bill Clinton needing explanations of what sexual relations exactly means.

As much as you are asking for exact quoting, your understanding or reasons for thinking that he is thinking a certain way without actually saying is pretty weak and at best is personal feeling of a guy that you do not know personally. Much like his dancing around the idea of "wiping the zionist state off the map", but not exactly calling for a destruction of Israel, Ahmadinejad's rhetoric is predictable. If the desired discussion if the justification of the establishment of a Jewish State within Palestine, then have it. However, it did happen, the Palestinians and a few other arab countries tried to reverse it several times and as a result Israel grew to the size it is today. After the discussion, Israel will still be there.

I am happy that you admire him. IMO, he is a poor choice for your adoration, but it is yours to make...a freedom of sorts...unlike freedoms that the prisoners of Dachau were granted (Pols, Jews, Greeks, Serbs, Russians...). But of course I am sure they were all humanely executed or a flu ran through the camp and did it...

Edited: Vincenzo on 1st May, 2007 - 2:43pm

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements Politics Business Civil & History - Page 2

It seems I have been humbled. I think an apology is in order. I am sorry I sincerely wasn't aware of the definition of the holocaust as LDS_forever presented. Thanks for clarifying that for me. They never taught me that in medical school! My idea of the holocaust was something different.

Rather off topic, but... I came to this board to learn and be corrected. I make mistakes and I admit them. I try not to insult anyone or get emotional in my discussions. I try to remain as objective and rational as possible. If I make a mistake (which I did) I would be happy to take constructive criticism. Hence I would like to thank LDS_forever for correcting me. All I am trying to do his share viewpoints. I'm sorry if I offend people I don't mean to.

Ok so what you are really saying that according to the accepted definition doubting numbers or method as agreed by popular historians = doubting holocaust. OK fine so now whenever I argue for questioning the holocaust what I mean is questioning number and methods as agreed by popular historians.

Since things are pretty clear now I guess I can reach a conclusion. Ahmadinejad does DOUBT the holocaust (as you defined it 5-7 million jews killed in concentration camps by the Nazis through means of Gassing) although he doesn't DENY it (note there is a difference). He does however recognise crimes committed against ethnic minorities by Nazis which includes Jews. At least this is what I get from his statements. If anyone disagrees with that interpretation please let me know why?

But this doesn't change my stance towards Ahmadinejad. I still agree with his argument. Why is questioning the current definition of the holocaust such a crime? Why do the Palestinians pay for a crime committed in Europe?

If it is proven historically then there shouldn't be a problem with historical revisionists raising questions. Again I can quote the famous pro-holocaust historian Deborah Esther Lipstadt who defends the rights of those who question :

As for lack of respect for victims this is a difficult issue. If the holocaust was a benign fact of history it wouldn't be a problem. However the holocaust has great significance in todays world since active zionism and the existence of the state of Israel heavily relies on memories of the holocaust. I am not suggesting that without the holocaust there would be no israel. But it cannot be doubted that the holocaust is a major part of zionism and huge factor in the creation and continuing of the state of israel.

Thousands and thousands of Palestinians are victims of Zionism. There are 4 MILLION PALESTINIAN REFUGEES! What is their crime? Tell me other than the holocaust what argument is their for allowing others to continually occupy their homes? Hence isn't it at least their right to question the holocaust since it is such a major part of the zionist movement?

If I agree that no one should question the holocaust will you agree that no one should question the militant Zionist crime at Deir Yassin? In honour of the victims should it be that Deir Yassin should never be discussed and let the arabs forever use it as an excuse to oppose Israel? Rather I believe Deir Yassin SHOULD be discussed and debated so the truth may emerge and those who completely deny it (the israeli foreign ministry did just that in 1969!) either prove their point or forever fade into oblivion.

I'm sorry I have veered off the topic. I still need to give you reasons other than his statements why I don't believe Ahmadinejad doesn't deny the mass killing of Jews (whether according to the holocaust definition or not). I also need to tackle the statement "israel should be wiped off the map" and whether it is incitement to violence or not. I will do this in another post God willing. For the moment I will stop.

Edited: Karbala on 1st May, 2007 - 11:39pm