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Reading The Quran - Page 4

You can just feel mousetrails go into First Holy War mode with these posts.

Mousetrails I think you are mistaking 5:14 to mean hatred between muslims and Christians. No rather this verse is talking about hatred and enmity between differing Christian sects themselves. And this verse does not talk about all Christians but rather some as demonstrated by the word "min aladheena" "from them" which is different from "all of them". These were specific christians who broke what they were covenanted with.

There are a number of verses in the Quran which talk about not befriending certain people. We need to view all those verses in context in order to make sense of them.

This is a general verse allowing muslims to respect those who are peaceful with muslims and commands muslims to show them kindness and justice. These include Christians and Jews.

So why exacly is the Quran warning about befriending Christian and Jews. When viewed in conjunction with other verses using similar language in the Quran the meaning becomes crystal clear.

Hence it should be clear that the order not to befriend some Christians and Jews was due to their mocking the religion of those who believed and due to their making war and driving the muslims away from their homes.

Infact many amongst the "People of Scripture" ie jews and Christians are considered righteous. See verses 7:159 2:62 5:69 3:113-114 3:199

Muslims are not ordered to stay away from jews and Christians if you interpret the Quran correctly. As far as 5:64 is concerned the statements "Allah's hands are tied" is a reference to a particular theological belief denying God's omnipotence. For this belief Allah has punished these certain Jews with enmity and hatred between themselves and NOT between muslims and Jews. I wonder how their could have been enmity between muslims and jews for 4000 years when muslims only emerged 1400 years ago.

Guessing is always a dangerous game and this proves it. 6:157 is addressing pagans who were neith Jews or Christians which would be clear of you had carefully studied the verse before since the people concerned had no knowledge of the scriptures of the Jews or the Christians.

Wrong. This subject of this verse is definitely Allah and thus it is a threat from Allah. This threat again is not earthly violence but punishment in the hereafter.
1st person Plurals such as "we" or "our" are often used in the Arabic and hebrew languages as a mark of respect e.g elohim. In the Quran this usage is common alongside singular "I" and "Me". This is no surprise to experts of the arabic language. A simple proof is the islamic greeting Salam Alaikum which is actually plural "Peace be upon you all" but is also used when addressing one person.

Careful, I advise you not to make judgements about handpicked verses which you haven't pondered deeply enough.

Quran Reading

Sorry Karbala, I have no intention of reading, and re-reading, then spending hours wondering what Allah/God really meant. I'm going to read the Quran just like any other book and report what I find. If it were possible I would just copy and paste what I find, but on this website it is mandatory that I write, not just copy.

Reading The Quran Islam Studies

As you wish mousetrails. You are now an author of a book. Your standards should be higher than the average joe.

You see even a child can pick up a book and regurgitate its contents based on their own whim and desire. A seasoned author of scripture however is expected to be thorough and objective before reaching a conclusion.

I think there is a reason this website requires you to write and not just copy/paste. If you don't want to spend "hours" reading and re-reading then all you have to do is ask and I will endeavour to point you in the right direction.

If you still wish to post the most controversial verses you can find, not consider other points of view and reach a conclusion you are free to do so. Don't expect anyone to take you seriously though.

Page 4 Quran Reading

Karbala, I'm going to ignore most of your comparisons and tell you of an incident I experienced today. A friend of mine who is Catholic to the bone marrow made the statement today that the Virgin Mary was foretold in Genesis. My answer was, "Show me!" She read Genesis 3:15
The Douay version of the Catholic Bible

This is clearly Allah/God telling the devil/serpent what he can expect from Eves offspring. But some priest that lived 1600 years ago decided this foretold the Virgin Mary and Catholics have been running with that story ever since. I don't buy it for a moment.

Now, the Quran is on the net for all the world to see. I'm going to read and comment on the words I read, not what the scholars and the learned ones have decided the words really mean. If I find it to be a book of peace I will say so.
Karbala

And if you don't take me seriously, you will not be number one.

Quran Reading

Mousetrails:

That is an interesting analogy between a Catholic interpreting Genesis 3:15 and a Muslim interpreting Quran 5:14. The Quranic verse CLEARLY says "enmity amongst themselves"(ie christians who broke the covenant) in 5:14 which you somehow twisted into enmity between Christians and muslims. Hence I think you seemed to have taken up the position of the catholic in your analogy since your interpretation of 5:14 just like the catholic in Gen 3:15 is so obviously false.

Mousetrails your previous post contained basic errors and misinterpretations which I just had to correct. E.g. assuming 6:157 was referring to Jews when the very verse before confirmed it definitely wasnt referring to Jews.

Mousetrails this isnt a matter of your interpretation vs mine. You seemed to clearly misread some verses assigning to them meanings which do not exist. It worries me that instead of considering my corrections you choose to ignore them. It seems to me you have started reading this Quran with an agenda in mind and you are determined to prove it. Prove me wrong by being objective.

Reading The Quran

Karbala, I'll give you the fact that 5:14 could be read either way.

The book of Anfal speaks of war and the spoils of war. War is treated as something that will, or has happened, but there is never a mention of any battle. It is mostly a book of rules and regulations on how to live.

Reading Quran - Page 4

Mousetrails, you consider it a fact that this verse can be read as hatred between muslims and Christians? How? Where have the muslims been mentioned in this verse?

All pronouns e.g. "الَّذِينَ(those)" "فَنَسُواْ (they neglected)" and بَيْنَهُمُ(among them" are all referring to Christians as stated in the verse. The verse clearly says "between them" or "amongst them". The point is emphatically driven home as to who is referred to here in the last phrase "and Allah will inform them of what they did". This can only be interpreted as referring to Christians.

If the muslims were to be included in this verse then Allah would have used a 2nd person address as in 5:11 "O you who believe!" so 5:14 would look like "We excited hatred between you and them" NOT "We excited hatred amongst them".

Mousetrails I'm afraid you will have to accept you grossly misinterpreted this verse.

Reading Quran Studies Islam - Page 4

karbala

Maybe you can also explain who the "We" is in "therefore We excited among them?"