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Vigilante Muslims - Page 2

That seems to be an organization. Look at your own words: classroom, prayer hall and a committee for crying out loud. What do you want to call it being 'organized' - a 1000 people? As Vincenzo mentioned - 2 people plotting is enough to cause a lot of destruction, therefore any kind of organized meetings or statements against basic human rights / civilians is terrorism. The fact they do it in the name of religion only seeks to worsen the general feelings of people towards ALL Muslims regardless of the stance.

Muslims Vigilante

Karbala:

So Islam prefers not to do anything about it and then blame the West when people assume these groups are MUSLIMS? Because they are. Then the peaceful Muslims and its leaders should stay quiet if they are not willing to do anything about it because they are contributing to the whole confusion.

This is typical of some of your posts. We are NOT discussing about Bush or Olmert, we are discussing about Muslims hence we are in the Islam board. I notice you always try to point the finger in the other side of the fence when someone challenge one of your views instead of coming with a reasonable explanation on why (in this case) Muslims do not want to separate themselves from these extremists. So you do see this group as a Muslim group AND part of your religion organization? Since you say "ours"....

Vincenzo:

You are exactly right. If you make a search on different threads within this forum you would also find similar responses. Muslims do not want to separate themselves from this group then I say they have NOTHING to complain about when the "West" thinks (rightfully) that these extremist groups are part of Islam.

Vigilante Muslims Islam Studies

Well, the group is catching the ire of the government now. They seem to be a bit more than just a strange group to be ignored:

https://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288619,00.html

I think the key once again is perferring martyrdom over life and taking out thy fellow man in the act is quite alright!

Page 2 Muslims Vigilante

LDS_forever:

You want muslims to exclude organisations like AL-Qaeda from the religion of Islam? This has been done thousands of times, infact it is typical of you to ignore that.

Excommunication is an official decision taken by an organisation. This isnt applicable in Islam for a couple of reasons.

1. Islam isnt an organisation. No one decides who is allowed to be a muslim and who isnt. No one has that authority except the person him/herself.

2. Such a decision especially involving a persons salvation can only be taken by God or his representative who is necessarily infallible. The Catholics believe the Pope is infallible while Mormons take their Prophet as infallible (I think). Muslims do not call anyone infallible in the present age. Hence no one has the authority to call another person a non-muslim.

I think you misunderstood my point about Bush/Olmert and the Jewish and Christian faiths. I was drawing a comparison to illustrate the problem of excommunication. Taking Bush and the Christian faith as an example.

Question Can the Christian Church (LDS, Catholic, anglican etc) excommunicate Bush?

Answer either,
1. Yes, Then why hasnt that happened already? Yet Muslims do not consider the Christian Church complicit with Bush?
2. No, then Christians cannot blame the religion of Islam.

Muslims Vigilante

Karbala:

Really? I am curious as to how exactly the Islam do this. Please explain since you are saying:

It seems illogical if Islam do not apply Excommunication how can then "exclude" someone from its religion?

I believe Bush is a Catholic (not sure) therefore it is this Church who may need to deal with whatever issues he may have.

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE 2. The Catholics believe the Pope is infallible while Mormons take their Prophet as infallible (I think) No, the LDS doctrine do not embrace infallibility.

No, the LDS doctrine do not embrace infallibility.

Vigilante Muslims

First of all, GWB is actually a Methodist. He was a Presbyterian, but switched to his wifes religion before marriage. However, it is interesting that you have brought this up...

https://bushlibraryblog.wordpress.com/tag/u...-debate/page/2/

There has been a movement to revoke Cheney's and Bush's membership to the church this year. Basically, it is the equivelent of excommunication. So, the answer to your question or analogy of comparison is...yes. They can and some are trying to do what you have suggested. Now it may not come to pass, but as you can see, there is a movement underway.

There is no one ruling body of Christian belief. There are many splinter groups, but all of them have a way of dealing with people that they want to make sure are separated or have separated from the faith.

Al-Queda is not a religion, but a organization. A more fair comparison would be to bar Republicans from the church of their choice. However, there is a problem there...all Republicans are not Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodist, Lutherans, Mormons, etc... So, in actuality, we would have to go after the individuals. I realize you see Christianity as one great big monolith, but it really is more like a forest that has many trees. The only time that groups are banned is when a splinter group of a major religion deviates from the teachings and is at that point unrecognized by the religion or rather excommunicated. This has happened many times with the Catholic religion and is the basis for many of the excommuncations of late (non-commissioned Priest being made, women being moved into Priest positions...). For the Mormon Church (more properly called the Jesus Christ Church of Latter Day Saints), a group that is called Mormon Fundamentalist still practice polygamy. The church has no ties to this offshoot of Mormonism...basically, they were excommunicated.

Now as far as what happens after excommunication, you are still allowed to believe as you will...that is between you and your God. No one can stop that. So if you are excommunicated from the Catholic Church, you can still practice Catholic teachings, but you are not allowed to do it in a Catholic Church. In the end, it will be between you and your God as to what happens afterwards. Basically, salvation and affiliation to a church or religion are two entirely different things. There are people going to church today that will not be saved! Excommunication/membership revocation is simply a method to say that the church does not agree with your doings and is separating itself from your actions. They did not say that you could not practice the religion...you just cannot officially practice the religion.

However, your explanation makes me realize why muslims in general will not denounce the horrible doings of anyone claiming to be muslim. It is truly unfortunate. I always wonder if the young men strapping the nails and dynomite to their bodies really end up in paradise with all the virgins and good life. If so, killing your fellow man and the suicide was worth it, I guess. But on the other hand, if this practice is not acceptable to God, is the entire religion that embraces it to held accountable?

Rather off topic, but... Oh, and by the way, I firmly believe that their are some Popes that are going to be very far from heaven. The will reside in some low levels of Puragory without a chance at the pearly gates. This belief is held by many clergy in the religion. The crusades...Popes with armies that weren't afraid to use them. Some point to Pius the XII and his knowledge of Jews being exterminated and ask if he acted properly.

Vigilante Muslims - Page 2

I see. If excommunication simply means the church does not agree with your actions then every muslims organisation of respectable repute has "excommunicated" Bin-Laden and his cronies. the problem is when you use phrases like "officially practice your religion". Who is to be the "official" who can identify those who "officially practice religion". There is no such "official" in the present day for muslims. Hence all this excommunication talk doesn't apply to Islam.

As a side-note anyone who sympathises with Al-Qaeda would be kicked out of 99% of mosques.

If you were to straight up ask all distinguished islamic scholars what they thought of Osama Bin-Laden and Al-Qaeda they would all unanimously agree he is a hell-bound/despicable/terrorist individual who must be brought to Justice and killed. Some would even call him an apostate.

If you want denunciation of Al-Qaeda and groups like it and their actions.

Egypt:
Shaikh Tantawi (The head of the biggest Sunni Muslim organisation Al-Azhar)
https://www.usembassyjakarta.org/lawmaker.html

Pakistan:
Molana Tahir Ul-Qadiri (One of the biggest Clerics in Pakistan)
https://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2...17/195606.shtml

Iran:
Ayatollah Khamenei (Supreme Leader of Iran)
https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1549573.stm

Qatar
Yusuf Al-Qaradhawi (Prominent cleric especially for Muslim Brotherhood)
https://www.islamfortoday.com/qaradawi02.htm

Iraq:
Ayatollah Sistani (Leading Scholar of emulation amongst Shiites in Iraq)
https://www.najaf.org/all/view.asp?l=ENG&c=...t=STA&I=7072005

UK:
AIM (organisation for Shia muslims in UK)
https://www.aimislam.com/statements/stateme...or-threat-in-uk

Spain:
The Islamic Commission of Spain
https://www.int-review.org/terr42a.html

US:
Council on American Islamic Relations
https://www.cair-net.org/crisiscenter/html/cair_ad.html

Canada
Syed Mumtaz Ali (President of Canadian Muslim Society)
https://muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html

Vigilante Muslims Studies Islam - Page 2

From boortz.com

If there is no excomunication from Islam at least the Muslim world could show as much outrage for there atrocities as they do at the West.