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How To Become Perfect - Page 3

This is what most people think of when they think of perfection.
1. Do you think God has attained such perfection in his eternally progressive state?
2. Most people think that a person is required to be perfected before they can be a God. However, I have pointed out that those with their calling and election as well as the Holy Ghost and Premortal Christ/Jehovah all are known as being Gods prior to resurrection and the "completed" perfection you referred to. Do you think that perfection/completion is a higher state than that of being a God? Please explain your answer further.
3. Bruce R. McConkie said a person who has their C&E has had the day of judgement moved forward and they have been judged worthy of all that God has. Do you think a person who has received their calling and election considered to have "finished the plan the Savior has set for us".
4. Are the 3 Nephites who will not die nor be resurrected until latter on in the game considered to be perfected? Why?
5. You seem to indicate that Christ achieved a level of growth that is impossible for any other man to achieve in this life. Why do you or do you not think this is so?


Edited: Amonhi on 3rd Oct, 2007 - 3:22am

Perfect To How

Definitely.
When talking about the progression of God we are not talking about more he needs to learn, or that he needs to be more perfected then he is now. Progression of God (The Father) is only a reflection of him bringing more and more of his children to where he is, something that will never end for him.

In a sense yes when we talk about "The God". In LDS theology their is a special place for God the Father. He is the only one we pray to, the one we worship. There is a unique position in our hearts for God the Father that no other exalted man has. Even Jesus defers to God the Father in many examples in the Scriptures. I do not believe there is an example of any mortal (Save Jesus) that achieves Godhood and the perfection that comes with it, in mortal life.

I am not sure this means that anyone becames a God (save Jesus) in this life. Consider Bruce R. Mckonkie's words in "Calling and election sure concerning the prophet Joseph smith.

When someone's calling and election is made sure they do not receive the full blessings of godhood nor are they perfected in the most specific definition of the word. They have just been promised that they will receive these things when their mortal tenure on earth is done and at some later date.

I believe because of Christ's unique mission to take on the sins of the world he achieved a level of perfection that no man could achieve in this life. If this were so then other men could have taken the world's sins unto himself, a achievement that Christ himself said only he could do.

The journey that all men take, even "perfect" men and women, has had some bumps in it. Seth knew his weaknesses and repented of all these things and knew that it was because of his redeemer that he could do all things. No "perfect" man (save Jesus) led a sinless life. They just perfectly followed the plan of happiness that was taught to them.

I believe that when the scriptures says a man is perfect, it is an indication that that man has done what is required for him or her to accomplish in this life(his calling and election is made sure as you say). This is not to say that his journey is complete. A man may be declared perfect in this life, but still has to wait to be perfected and receive all that the Father hast.

Edited: dbackers on 3rd Oct, 2007 - 4:43pm

How To Become Perfect Studies Doctrine Mormon

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You are correct. There is more however. Although many do not realize it, in LDS theology there are 3 levels of beliefs or kingdoms. At each level the doctrine changes and so does our relationship with God and Christ. (You many have heard that Joseph Smith's relationship progressed from 1. Servant 2. Son 3. Friend.)
You are correct in that the relationship we have with God as both a Servant and a Son place God in a unique position. As Servants, God is our Master. As Sons, God is our Father. As Friends, God is our ..... EQUAL. This is new stuff to most, and very hard to swallow especially when we are talking about mortals our our current existence. Here are a few scripture references to help the idea sink in a bit...

This equality with God is, as Paul said, something we should have in mind. Not that we should rule God by any means, but that we should strive to develope a relationship with God in which we become good friends and thus equals. (Note this theme in these verses: James 2:23, Isa. 41:8)
With the servants of God, "obedience" is the theme. With the Son, "learning" is the theme, and with Friends, "Equality", is the theme. Each of us fits into one of these relationship levels with God.
Another thing that is little know is that those who have their C&E have the Sealing Power or Ultimate power of God, (Although they may not know it, or know how to use it). D&C 76:55-59, D&C 50:26-29, D&C 84:38, Hel. 10.
As far as perfection goes, those who are equal with God and have the power of God are perfect, not meaning complete. Meaning the Holy Ghost is God without a body, Christ was mortal God. Those who have their C&E are considered mortal Gods as was Christ. D&C 76:58 Another way to say this is, if it acts like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck, or in this case, a perfect God.

Concerning Bruce R. McConkie Quotes - I would bet my salvation on them, as he has been proved wrong on multiple doctrines. I just wanted to see what you thought regarding that concept.

Not so. The qualification for calling and Election is, faith, repentance, baptism, gift the the holy Ghost, sealed by the holy spirit of promise. once this is done, the blessings are immediately applied. But you still have to die and be resurrected in the future. Note the wording in D&C 76:

Past/Already happened - 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given-
Past/Already happened - 52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
Current/Presently - 53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
Current/Presently - 54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
Current/Presently - 55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things-
Current/Presently - 56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
Current/Presently - 57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
Current/Presently - 58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God-
Current/Presently - 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
Future/Promised - 60 And they shall overcome all things.
Future/Promised - 61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
Future/Promised - 62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
Future/Promised - 63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
Future/Promised - 64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
Future/Promised - 65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

Notice that we have people who ARE Gods and Will come forth in the resurrection of the Just. this can't happen unless the being a God does not require a person to be resurrected already. In fact, they HAVE power over life and death, (verse 59), just as Christ did. Now, here is a tricky part, it says they have ALREADY been given "all things" and "All things are theres". This can't happen unless they are sinless or without sin:
"But no man is possessor of all things except he be purified and cleansed from all sin." - D&C 50:28
This state of being in which we are without sin is called "perfection" in the scriptures. And it is a state we can all achieve, and we have all been COMMANDED to achieve in this life.

Christ did not "take on the sins of the world" in the way Christianity in general believes. This is one of those things that changes as one moves from Servant to Son to Friend. This misunderstanding makes the atonement incomprehensible. This would be a very interesting thread.

You said, "No "perfect" man (save Jesus) led a sinless life." This brings up a discussion regarding the difference between sin and transgression. Also, in my last post I tried to show that Christ Learned obedience by suffering from his mistakes.
Two questions for you is, "At what point did Christ become perfect" & "When did he start and stop learning obedience?".

I think I have shown that they receive all that the Father has. the reason they don't start glowing, as it were, it that their spirit is blocked by their bodies/flesh which has not be perfected and will die. (Christ had this same problem, as he didn't look any different, so people did not know him from Adam.) However, the being inside the body is as Glorious as God himself.
There are moments in which the spiritual Glory is visible. This happens when a person is transfigured.

You have very good comments and I would give you Charm points, but I can't...

Page 3 Perfect To How

Of course not. But the lord does take on the sins of the world in LDS theology in a different way. Jesus took on all sins when he suffered in the Garden regardless if we repented of these sins. That suffering is efficacious for us only when we repent and forsake our sins.

Even when someone's Calling and Election is made sure our Savior still is the one that lifts us to that point. There is no one that can be perfect unto himself

From 1 Ne. 10: 10

Ok. it may be my own small mind working here, but I do not believe that any mortal in this life has received the same glory that God now has. He has achieved Godhood and his glory surpasses that of anyone in mortality or premortality (including the Pre Mortal Savior or Mortal Savior)

I am not claiming that Equality with God is impossible as other Christian denominations claim. I am only stating that I believe ultimate Godhood and thus Perfection can only be achieved at a future Date.
I do believe we are joint Heirs with Christ. Without delving to deeply into the Temple I would only mention the words "only to become such". In that context the Lord is promising that we will become, not that we are, after receiving the endowments. ( I believe the Temple is a type and shadow of those things that we are to learn as we progress,not the final lesson that we are to learn.)

The Scripture (D&C 76) you quoted is in fact a "recipe" for Godhood and perfection. But it does not mean that we have to be perfect in this life to receive all that our Father hast. It means that we should be striving for perfection relying wholly on the merits of our Savior to achieve that perfection.

I cannot equate the Sealing Power with the Ultimate Power of God. Yes it is the power that God bestows upon man, but there is much more to learn, power to gain, that we do not understand in this life(even those who have had their calling and election made sure).

But I do not think that there is any mortal in the world today who has achieved equality with God in power and Majesty. For example all the prophets of this dispensation (individuals who you would think are closest to God's perfection) have acknowleded their own subordination to God the Father in this life.



Hel. 12: 7

Perfect To How

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE Christ did not "take on the sins of the world" in the way Christianity in general believes. - Amonhi QUOTE Of course not. But the lord does take on the sins of the world in LDS theology in a different way. Jesus took on all sins when he suffered in the Garden regardless if we repented of these sins. That suffering is efficacious for us only when we repent and forsake our sins. - dbackers Search Google for: "Azazel" You will find that on the Day of Atonement there were 2 goats selected without blemish. One was named Jehovah and the other Azazel. I could go into great detail if I had time, but I am very busy now. In short the Jehovah(Christ) goat had his blood spilled on the mercy seat. The Azazel(Satan) goat had all the sins of the children of Israel placed on his head and was forced to wander in the wilderness taking the sins of the people with it until it died from it's own efforts. (This took time so eventually they helped speed up the process by encouraging it off a cliff.) So Satan literally takes the sins of the people on his head and Christ did not. How/Why? Just as a parent is responsible for teaching children or the sin is on their head, Satan has "led all astray". In the book of Enoch it says, QUOTE "And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin." - Chapter 10:8-9 Because satan is responsible for all sin, all who repent are declared innocent and the sin is paid for by Satan, or is on the head of Satan. All though who refuse to repent after having the knowledge necessary are responsible for their own sin, just as a child who was taught wrong by their parents, who later learns correctly and still chooses to do wrong is responsible for the sin. This same principle applies during war when leaders command the troops to fight. If the leaders are fighting an unrighteous war, then the sin is on the leaders head and the troops are considered to have had their agency infringed upon. Christ suffered specifically to "to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice", Alma 34:11-16 Hence his blood was spilled on the "mercy seat". This might be an interesting discussion as a new topic.

Search Google for: "Azazel"

You will find that on the Day of Atonement there were 2 goats selected without blemish. One was named Jehovah and the other Azazel. I could go into great detail if I had time, but I am very busy now. In short the Jehovah(Christ) goat had his blood spilled on the mercy seat. The Azazel(Satan) goat had all the sins of the children of Israel placed on his head and was forced to wander in the wilderness taking the sins of the people with it until it died from it's own efforts. (This took time so eventually they helped speed up the process by encouraging it off a cliff.)

So Satan literally takes the sins of the people on his head and Christ did not. How/Why?
Just as a parent is responsible for teaching children or the sin is on their head, Satan has "led all astray". In the book of Enoch it says,

Because satan is responsible for all sin, all who repent are declared innocent and the sin is paid for by Satan, or is on the head of Satan. All though who refuse to repent after having the knowledge necessary are responsible for their own sin, just as a child who was taught wrong by their parents, who later learns correctly and still chooses to do wrong is responsible for the sin.
This same principle applies during war when leaders command the troops to fight. If the leaders are fighting an unrighteous war, then the sin is on the leaders head and the troops are considered to have had their agency infringed upon.
Christ suffered specifically to "to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice", Alma 34:11-16 Hence his blood was spilled on the "mercy seat". This might be an interesting discussion as a new topic.

This discussion will take some time to have, and I am very limited right now. However, the first thing to consider is that a person whom God finds worthy of receiving their C&E no longer "continues in Sin" as he did previously.

This means that the only man of sin has died and the new man is born, or in other words, he is reborn a new man. This happens at the time the Holy Spirit of Promise seals the person up unto eternal life.

Correct. However, you missed the part about anyone who meets the requirements, (Faith, baptism, holy ghost and Sealed by the holy spirit of promise), receives the blessings, (perfected, etc...). Notice that the scripture is speaking of someone who has that whole list of blessings and says that that same person has NOT yet been, but will be resurrected in the first resresurrectionSo either the person is dead and not yet resurrected, or he is alive and not yet dead/resurrected. Notice what joseph said regarding the "just men made perfect" who are spirits:

This is a spirit that will be resurrected in the first resurrection, but has not yet been. How can he appear in Glory unless he has Glory? What glory does he come in?
Answer found in D&C 76:69-70

It just so happens that these are the blessings of those who already met the requirements, Faith, baptism, holy ghost and Sealed by the holy spirit of promise.
As we know there are many who have had their C&E. All these had been Just men made perfect and have received all the blessings promised in D&C 76 for those who qualify.

I am not sure if it is fair to compare the "children of men" with the "Sons of God".

However, there is need for humility and ggratitudebecause without God, nothing is possible. However, among the beings who work by the power of God, all are equal and have the same abilities. And those with the sealing power can seal in heaven and on earth. They can move a mountain or create a world. Their is no ddifference in this life or the next, or the resurrection.

How To Become Perfect

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE So Satan literally takes the sins of the people on his head and Christ did not. Is not the Doctrine of Christ's atonement him taking on the sins of the world. This is a fundamental LDS doctrine. From Dallin H Oaks QUOTE Jesus Christ is also the life of the world because he has atoned for the sins of the world. Also from Elder Oaks QUOTE Peter described how Christ "bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed There is no Doctrine in the church of Satan paying for anyone's sins.

As to perfection, I do not think that there have been to many (if any) that have achieved this in this life

Is not the Doctrine of Christ's atonement him taking on the sins of the world. This is a fundamental LDS doctrine.
From Dallin H Oaks

Also from Elder Oaks

There is no Doctrine in the church of Satan paying for anyone's sins.

Comparatively, there has been very, very few who have had their C&E made sure in this life (certainly none of us on this forum) or have even been close to achieving perfection in this life.

As Quoted from the Prophet Joseph Smith

There is still work Beyond the Grave

To me the doctrine of Perfection as relating to calling and election made sure is that the Lord is saying that you have finished the test in this life and you have nothing left to prove. You are assured all that I have.

From Roy W. Doxy
Accepted of the Lord:
The Doctrine of Making Your Calling and Election Sure quoting Marion G Romney

Definitely we can make our calling and election sure (this does not mean we are perfect but that we have a perfect assurance that we have accomplished all that we need to do) but by doing this we are not assured of all Power and Glory in this life but only a promise of such.

No one receives all of God's blessings in this life, no one.

How To Perfect - Page 3

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE There is no Doctrine in the church of Satan paying for anyone's sins. I didn't' say that Satan pays for anyone's sins. QUOTE "Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.  But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world." Alma 34:11-12 Although this scripture says a "man" the same logic applies to any being, whether it is a goat of a God. Our law which is just will not take the life of the brother of a murderer, even if that brother is a God. The law requires the life of the murderer, or the sinner. Satan cannot suffer for the sins that belong to us, neither can Christ. And if we do not repent, then we will have to suffer for our sins. QUOTE "What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God." Alma 42:25 The trick is making the sin longer belong to us, so that even though we did the act, we are no-longer accountable for it, just as a child is not accountable for bad teachings from a parent, on condition that they repent. If the child does not repent after gaining knowledge, it doesn't matter what the parent taught them, they have chosen to sin and are accountable to that sin. The only difference in this case is that Satan is the bad parent who taught the entire human race to sin. the doctrine is no different.

I didn't' say that Satan pays for anyone's sins.

Although this scripture says a "man" the same logic applies to any being, whether it is a goat of a God. Our law which is just will not take the life of the brother of a murderer, even if that brother is a God. The law requires the life of the murderer, or the sinner. Satan cannot suffer for the sins that belong to us, neither can Christ. And if we do not repent, then we will have to suffer for our sins.

The trick is making the sin longer belong to us, so that even though we did the act, we are no-longer accountable for it, just as a child is not accountable for bad teachings from a parent, on condition that they repent. If the child does not repent after gaining knowledge, it doesn't matter what the parent taught them, they have chosen to sin and are accountable to that sin. The only difference in this case is that Satan is the bad parent who taught the entire human race to sin. the doctrine is no different.

Comparatively, among the human race you are correct. There are generally at least 1 or more in the average ward who have their C&E. Not in every ward, but in most. You certainly wouldn't be able to tell them from any other person. It would be an interesting discussion to have in the "Mature forum" regarding the qualifications, (which are much fewer & easier than most would think, and yet the one qualification that counts can be the hardest thing in the world for some to receive.). (Every sealer has their calling and election made sure. Usually before they are called as a sealer. There is no age requirement, or position requirement.)

I agree. A person receives their calling and election and "Perfection through the atonement" prior to knowing all things or being resurrected, as I stated in my last post.
Perfection and Calling and Election only mean that you are sinless, not that we have achieved the end of our progression, which is endless. Notice that he said "learn our Salvation and exaltation". This learning process continues long after we have received both. (that may not make much sense from your view point.)

Agreed.

This then forces a question. D&C 76:59 says, "Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death,..." After this life, and after being resurrected, how do we have control over life and death? It is easy to see how Christ had power over life and death in that he "gave up the Ghost" and took up the body again. By saying that these blessings do not come in this life or before resurrection, you are saying that God the Father and other perfected and resurrected beings can die or give up the body after being reunited with it never to be separated again?

Another question we are forced to ask is: If perfection cannot come until we are Exactly like God the Father, ie resurrected, Are you saying also that the spirits of Just men made perfect do not really exist?
At what point can just men be made perfect? This life, the spirit life or after resurrection?

We receive them as soon as we are able.

If we agree that the qualifications for C&E is the same for a just man to be made perfect, then we can discuss the qualifications or process of becoming perfect without discussing the C&E, A Mature topic). (Then we can bypass the rule regarding discussing topics that are in the mature section. And get the same result.) ;^)

How To Perfect Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE Perfection and Calling and Election only mean that you are sinless I do not believe that Perfection and Calling and Election made sure are the same thing or having one's Calling and election made sure means one is sinless (it says one does not continue in sin, a small but an important distinction). We probably will continue to disagree on this part of the Gospel. QUOTE By saying that these blessings do not come in this life or before resurrection, you are saying that God the Father and other perfected and resurrected beings can die or give up the body after being reunited with it never to be separated again? I don't think that is what I said. God's body and resurrected being's body are inseparably connected to his spirit but that has nothing to do with perfection as we are discussing it. QUOTE Every sealer has their calling and election made sure How can you know this? There are people who are sealers that still sin and have weaknesses. I have an Uncle who is a sealer, but he still has to work on his Temper sometimes. People who work in the Temple are not perfect. They can and still suffer temptation and occasionally err in their everyday lives.

In replying to how to become perfect

I do not believe that Perfection and Calling and Election made sure are the same thing or having one's Calling and election made sure means one is sinless (it says one does not continue in sin, a small but an important distinction). We probably will continue to disagree on this part of the Gospel.

I don't think that is what I said. God's body and resurrected being's body are inseparably connected to his spirit but that has nothing to do with perfection as we are discussing it.

How can you know this? There are people who are sealers that still sin and have weaknesses. I have an Uncle who is a sealer, but he still has to work on his Temper sometimes. People who work in the Temple are not perfect. They can and still suffer temptation and occasionally err in their everyday lives.

There is no way to know this, nor how many people have achieved perfection.

I have the opinion that even the apostles and prophet are not perfect. In the scriptures we read of Lehi murmuring against the Lord in the wilderness, Joseph Smith complained of his lot as he sat in prison. On several occasion the Prophet Joseph rebuked Brigham Young severely(which Brigham accepted Humbly). Even the Lord in 1833 rebuked Joseph Smith and his counselors and the Presiding Bishopric by saying (from D&C 93: 47)

If these men who were called as Apostles and Prophets were not perfect in their life, how can we declare ourselves perfect or anyone else we know?

Rather off topic, but... I am sure that we are both making some incorrect assumptions on this topic (part of being Human, but it is interesting to discuss these things.