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Can A Lamanite Be The President Of The Church? - Page 7

Bob:

What is a "Lamanite" President? That's the "meat" of the issue.

And no, we are not offtopic. My replies always go back to the original thread. Having said that, I do not see how to say that unless you are called a Lamanite you DO NOT KNOW how it feels , how that can be considered racial? It is common sense. In no way, I can know what it feels like to be called "white t..." because I was never called that!

My point ALL along! You may understand what it is like if you was a called a racial slur before but since you was never called a "Lamanite" for obvious reasons then you CANNOT possibly FULLY understand what is like to be called a Lamanite. It really is a matter of common sense.

Church The President The Lamanite Can

LDS:

Obviously this is a discussion that can take on multiple facets and tangents that can include the discussion of racial slurs. I would suspect mostly however that a Lamanite President in the context that was desired is a person of Native American ancestry. As I stated previously I have been able to find no doctrine that currently denotes a standard of any race in regards to offices of the priesthood. I have been able to find sources that say specific tribes will lead, but that is not a relevant point in my opinion.

It's okay for you to take offense to being called a "lamanite." It is a label that should be done away with in present contexts, just as all racial slurs. There was once a time when it was appropriate, but even that time ended in the Book Of Mormon. However I still find your statements that I cannot understand to be racist. In my opinion there is no one racial slur that is greater or lesser than another. They are all meant to demean and demoralize. In that respect I can equate my personal feelings about one slur with your feelings about another. It is no more or less.

Can A Lamanite Be The President Of The Church? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Bob:

Exactly. What is your opinion on why in an Elder Quorum's meeting this topic would come up? What would make some brothers think/perceive that it may not be possible that a Native American can become Church President?

I do not take offense, I just find the label to be ignorant and racial in nature EVEN if it is not intended to be when in use.

How? Tortdog and you said that but you all have not given me a reason on WHY is it racist.

Well, that's debatable but yes I agree.

Absolutely.

I never said it is MORE or LESS but DIFFERENT. It is NOT the same because:

1. We are two different people.

2. Unless you are called the SAME slur I had, then how can you say you know how it feels to be called the SAME one I was called? It does NOT make any sense. You may know how it feels to be called a slur, sure, but unless you have experienced the SAME one I had, then you CANNOT (there is no way) you can say you know how it feels to be called THAT PARTICULAR slur. (I feel like I am going in circles and repeating myself so this will be the last time I explain this )

Nothing "racist" about saying you cannot possibly know what it feels to be called a Lamanite UNLESS you have been called one.

Page 7 Church The President The Lamanite Can

Before I get started I just wanted to inject that the first Black seventy was Elijah Able who was called and set apart as a seventy by Joseph Smith. He was an early black convert who was ordained to the priesthood and called as a seventy and severed 3 missions in his lifetime. Isn't interesting how we forget about good old Elijah Able.

Race in Mormonism is a very interesting topic. If you are interesting in understanding race's play, historical significance and understanding in the LDS culture, please read the book: The Mormon and the Beehive, by Amand Moss. Dr. Moss (an LDS ) is a sociologist who has spent over 30 years on this subject. He is the foremost scholar on race in Mormonism. I think you would have an eye opener about race in the LDS church. Another book called" Black and Mormon" by Darron T. Smith is a great book that looks at race in the church. Very thought provoking. Both are available through Amazon.

I do not speak for all cutlures outside of the U.S., but we here are all racists. No two ways around it. Racism does not mean that I have a conscious hatred, malicious intentions or conscious discrimination towords another. (that is prejudice) Racism refers to the cultural structures that keep society together through the construct of race. Me being a white male has privileges given to me by my culture that I cash in everyday. I may be aware of them or I may not. Blacks in the U.S are racist in that they participate in the racist structures of society by living to the expectation or confines that the society structures place. We call this order, but it is order constructed in a concept of race.
Race is not biological, but rather it is a social construct. We make and define race by social characteristic and physical attributes picked out by our society. Race changes, today how many would consider a Jew white? Some will and some sections of America would not.
As Dr. Moss would say, Mormonism as constructed its own races, races that may cross the American cultural racial divide that are considered eternal. I.e the 10 tribes and in this case Lamanite. The term Lamanite is a racist term in that it creates meaning, and assumptions based on the concept of "race" I really do not know what a Lamanite is, and from reading the posts there seems to be a little confusion of what that is. New DNA tests have shown us that the Native American has no middle East DNA in them, so if we base "Lamanite" upon DNA and genetics then we have problems. J.B. said he was called "Lamanite" due to where he was from, not due to his biological genetic make-up. So I guess the question that we may need to ask is what does it mean to call one a "Lamanite"? And Why do we call them a Lamanite?"
I have not heard the term Lamanite used since the 1980's. I was surprised to hear it still being used in that manner.
As from Blacks int he church there is a lot of discussion right now about what it means to be black and Mormon. How do we define our selves and our eternal idea of self identity in the midst of race. Is race eternal? (no it is not because it is a worldly social construct.) So to how much extent then is our understanding of the 10 tribes a racist idea, or filled with worldly assumptions? Is God's idea of 10 tribes like our understanding? I feel we are a racist church, ( not prejudice as a whole through). We work through confines accepted race ideas and newly created LDS ideas of race to define ourselves and our blessings.
Will we see a black Apostle anytime soon? I would say no, but it is always possible. I think that our culture as LDS is there yet. Perhaps this will give us some additional ideas for the discussion.

Church The President The Lamanite Can

Isiah:

Nobody can forget Elder Abel. As a matter of fact I said in an offtopic that I was mentioning only the Black Seventy as we know it now and not as it was known in the early days.

Isiah, those were great points that will surely would be nice to touch them in the Blacks and the Priesthood thread. Very interesting thoughts.

Yes, it still used. Some members seem to use it to describe skin color and race while others use it to describe geographical location. I feel most of the time it is used naively but members just do not understand the connotations of using such labels to describe some members,

Can A Lamanite Be The President Of The Church?

Isiah53, that is one of the first worthwhile input into the Topic I have seen since my last Post. I also thought Elix finally summed up what I was seeing in the question too. However, I do not know why everyone is wondering what the definition of Lamanite is or is not when the Book of Mormon clearly defines it. All you have to think about is two things:

1. Where did the term come from?
2. How did the term come about?

In addition to this consider the following:

We must understand that the term Lamanite was used to distinguish a people of a certain color AND a people that refused to follow the Gospel. I cannot phantom why anyone would want to refer to a Member of the Church as that. It just goes to show that we must analyze how terms are used to sterotype people.

NOTE: We have a specific thread for 'Blacks' and the Priesthood and so forth in the Mature section, I do not think that should be brought up here because it is something different in my mind - one is direct and this one is indirect.[/b]

Can Lamanite The President The Church - Page 7

LDS:

Ignorance. We can hope that whoever brought up the subject was correctly instructed by his peers that there is currently nothing to stop a "lamanite" from becoming the President of the Church.

I find your statements to be racist in nature because it implies my lack of understanding for the slur. I agree that I cannot know exactly what it feels like to be called a "Lamanite", but that is purely an argument of semantics. You agreed with me that all slurs are equal. I can know what it feels like to be insulted and in that respect I can equate that to what I would feel if I were a person of Native American ancestry being called a "lamanite." I concede the point that there will be differences. These will be based in the history of the slur and the context of its use. I believe however that those degrees of magnitude could be felt across the spectrum.

By saying that I cannot understand you are in essence saying that I cannot understand what it is like to be demoralized. It is this attitude that fosters prejudice, and I refuse to be your enabler.

Can Lamanite The President The Church Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 7

Bob:

Obviously you do not understand but I will leave it like that because now you are making big assumptions that I am not interested in entertain.

JB:

Because unfortunately, people stereotype individuals on a daily basis and Church members are not the exception BUT if we all take the time to read the Book of Mormon and know who the Lamanites were, I think we would not dare to call a Native American a "Lamanite" knowing the kind of people the Book of Mormon refers to. I think is one of those terms people just use without thinking too much. A very bad habit.