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Legrand Richards Interview - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 3rd Dec, 2007 - 8:52pm
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Legrand Richards Interview
LEGRAND RICHARDS Interview
Although this is an interview, I cannot verify the content, so read with a grain of salt.
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| THE 1978 OFFICIAL DECLARATION AN INTERVIEW WITH APOSTLE LEGRAND RICHARDS [1] In support of the premise that the 1978 "Official Declaration" was not a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation, is an interview Apostle LeGrand Richards had with Wesley P. Walters and Chris Vlachos. This interview was taped and later published, with most of it included here: Walters: On this revelation, of the priesthood to the Negro, I've heard all kinds of stories: I've heard that Christ appeared to the apostles; I've heard that Joseph Smith appeared; and then I heard another story that Spencer Kimball had had a concern about this for some time, and simply shared it with the apostles, and they decided that this was the right time to move in that direction. Are any of those stories true, or are they all? Richards: Well, the last one is pretty true, and I might tell you what provoked it in a way. Down in Brazil, there is so much Negro blood in the population there that it's hard to get leaders that don't have Negro blood in them. We just built a temple down there. It's going to be dedicated in October. All those people with Negro blood in them have been raising the money to build that temple. If we don't change, then they can't even use it. Well, Brother Kimball worried about and he prayed a lot about it. He asked each one of us of the Twelve if we would pray--and we did--that the Lord would give him the inspiration to know what the will of the Lord was. Then he invited each one of us in his office--individually, because you know when you are in a group, you can't always express everything that's in your heart. You're part of the group, see--so he interviewed each one of us, personally, to see how we felt about it, and he asked us to pray about it. Then he asked each one of us to hand in all the references we had, for, or against that proposal. See, he was thinking favorably toward giving the colored people the priesthood. Then we had a meeting where we meet every week in the temple, and we discussed it as a group together, and then we prayed about it in our prayer circle, and then we held another prayer circle after the close of that meeting, and [2] he (President Kimball) lead in the prayer; praying that the Lord would give us the inspiration that we needed to do the thing that would be pleasing to Him and for the blessing of His children. And then the next Thursday--we meet every Thursday --the Presidency came with this little document written out to make the announcement--to see how we'd feel about it--and present it in written form. Well, some of the members of the Twelve suggested a few changes in the announcement, and then in our meeting there we all voted in favor of it--the Twelve and the Presidency. One member of the Twelve, Mark Petersen, was down in South America, but Brother Benson, our President, had arranged to know where he could be reached by phone, and right while we were in that meeting in the temple, Brother Kimball talked with Brother Petersen, and read his this article, and he (Petersen) approved of it. Walters: What was the date? Would that have been the first of June, or something? Richards: That was the first Thursday, I think, in May. (June?) At least that's about when it was. And then after we all voted in favor of it, we called another meeting for the next morning, Friday morning, at seven o'clock, of all the other General Authorities--that includes the Seventies' quorum and the Patriarch and the Presiding Bishopric, and it was presented to them, and they all had an opportunity to express themselves, and there were a few of the brethren that were out presiding then in the missions, and so the Twelve were appointed to interview each one of them. I had to interview Brother Lee and read him the article, and asked him his feelings. He was thrilled, because he labored down there in Brazil, and he knew what it would mean for those people. So every member of the General Authorities to a man approved it before the announcement went out. We had a letter from our colored man up in Ogden; it read like this: he was a member of the Church, and he said,"If the Lord is willing to let me have my wife and children in this life, why wouldn't He be willing to let me have them in the next life?" That makes sense [3] doesn't it? You know the Lord gave a revelation to the Prophet Joseph where He said that. "There is a law irrevocably decreed in the heavens before the foundations of the earth were laid, upon which all blessings are predicated, and no blessing can be obtained except by obedience to the law upon which it is predicated." (D & C 130:20) Well, all that means in that if you want wheat, you've got to plant wheat, doesn't it? If you want corn, you've got to plant corn. Well, if I plant wheat and get a harvest, and the colored man plants wheat and takes as good care of it, why isn't he as much entitled to the harvest as I am? You see? So we figured the same for spiritual blessings. If the colored man lives as good as I do, serves the Lord, and so forth, why isn't he as much entitled to the blessings as I am? You see that? It's been a united decision; there's been no adverse comment by anyone, other than in California. Richards: What? Walters: Intermarriage--is that in view, too? Richards: Well no. We've never [recommended it] before this decision was reached. We've always recommended that people live within their own race. The Japanese ought to marry Japanese; the Chinese ought to marry Chinese; the Hawaiians ought to marry Hawaiians; and the colored people ought to marry colored. Walters: And that would be your position on that? Richards: That is still our position, but, they are entitled to the temple blessings--the sealing of their wives to them. It's all conditioned on their living. Now, if they live right, and they're devoted, and they're good clean living, why shouldn't they get the blessings? Walters: Now when President Kimball read this little announcement [in the staff meetings with the General Authorities], was that the same thing that was released to the press? Richards: Yes. Walters: There wasn't a special document as a "revelation", that he had and wrote down? [4] Richards: We discussed it in our meeting. What else should we say besides that announcement? And we decided that that was sufficient; that no more needed to be said. Walters: Was that the letter you sent out to the various wards? Richards: And to the Church; and to the newspapers, yes. Walters: Will that become a part of "scripture"? Richards: Yes, I've already thought in my own mind of suggesting we add it to the Pearl of Great Price (the fourth book of LDS "scriptures"), just like those last two revelations that we're just added. Walters: At that point, is there a special reason why you add it to the Pearl of Great Price, rather than to the Doctrine and Covenants? Is it just more convenient to put it there, instead of adding another number or something? Richards: I don't know that we've even discussed the reason which book it should go in; but the Pearl of Great Price was written and assembles later than the Doctrine and Covenants was. My grandfather (Franklin D. Richards) was the one that organized the Pearl of Great Price. When we discussed it in our meeting, we didn't discuss whether it should go in the Doctrine and Covenants, or the Pearl of Great Price; we just discussed how it would be to have those two revelations in the Pearl of Great Price. Walters: Will this affect your theological thinking about the Negro as being less valiant in the previous existence? How does this relate? Have you thought that through? Richards: Some time ago, the Brethren decided that we should never say that. We don't know just what the reason was. Paul said, "The Lord hath before appointed the bounds of the habitations of all men for to dwell upon the face of the earth," and so He determined that before we were born. He who knows why they were born with black skin or white and so on and so forth. We'll just have to wait. Walters: Is there still a tendency to feel that people are born with black skin because of some previous situation, or do we consider that black [5] skin is no sign anymore of anything inferior in any sense of the word? Richards: Well, we don't want to get that as a doctrine. Think of it as you will. You know, Paul said, "Now we see in part and we know in part; we see through a glass darkly. When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away, then we will see as we are seen, and knew as we are known." (a paraphrase of I Cor. 13:12) Now the Church's attitude today is to prefer to leave it until we know. The Lord has never indicated that that black skin came because of being less faithful. Now, the Church's attitude today is to prefer to leave it until we know. The Lord has never indicated that that black skin came because of being less faithful. Now, the Indian; we know why he was changed, don't we? The Book of Mormon tells us that; and he has a dark skin, but he has a promise there that through faithfulness, that they shall again become a white and delightsome people. So we haven't anything like that on the colored thing. Walters: Now, will this new revelation--has it brought any new insights or new ways of looking at the Book of Abraham? Because I think traditionally it is thought of the curse of Cain, coming through Canaanites and on the black-skinned people, and therefore denying the priesthood? Richards: We considered that with all the "for's" and the "against's", and decided that with all of that, if they lived their lives, and did the work, that they were entitled to their blessings. Walters: But you haven't come up with any new understanding of the Book of Abraham? I just wondered whether there would be a shift in that direction. Is the recent revelation in harmony with what the past prophets have taught, of when the Negro would receive the Priesthood? Richards: Well, they have held out the thought that they would ultimately get the priesthood, but they never determined the time for it. And so when this situation that we face down there in Brazil--Brother Kimball worried a lot about it--how the people are so faithful and devoted. The president of the Relief Society of the stake is a colored woman down there in one of the stakes. If they do the work, why it seems like that the justice of the Lord would approve of giving them [6] the blessing. Now it's all conditional upon the life that they live, isn't it? Walters: Well, I thank you for clarifying that for me, because you know, out in the streets out there, there must be at least five, ten different stories about the way this happened. Richards: Well, I've told you exactly what happened. Walters: Right. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Richards: If you quote me you will be telling the truth. Walters: OK, well fine. You don't mind if we quote you then? Richards: No. (The interview continued for ten more minutes, but nothing more was said with respect to the 1978 Negro revelation.) (Published by Bob White, Box 31883, Phoenix, AZ 85046) |
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Interview Richards Legrand
Continued...
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| Included on the next few pages are copies of four interesting letters between Chris Vlachos and Elder LeGrand Richards, that followed their personal interview. [7] 358 West 170 North Orem, Utah 84057 11 September 1978 Elder LeGrand Richards LDS Church Office Bldg. 47 E. South Temple St. Salt Lake City, UT 84111 Dear Elder Richards, I wanted to write and thank you for our visits of August 16th and a week or so ago. Wesley Walters and I appreciated your kindness in spending so much time with us, and for explaining your experiences with regard to the recent revelation authorizing you to give the LDS Priesthood to Negroes. Since I did not take any notes at our first meeting, I wanted to write and verify a few important points which you made before I forget them. One of the most interesting items which you mentioned was that the whole situation was basically provoked by the Brazilian temple--that is, the Mormon church has had great difficulty obtaining Priesthood leadership among its South American membership; and now with this new temple, a large proportion of those who have contributed money and work to built it would not be able to use it unless the Church changed its stand with regard to giving the Priesthood to Blacks. I believe that you also mentioned President Kimball as having called each of the Twelve Apostles individually into his office to hear their personal feelings with regard to this issue. While President Kimball was basically in favor of giving the Priesthood to Blacks, didn't be ask each of you to prepare some references for and against the proposal as found in the scriptures? Another thing which stands out in my mind was the prayer [8] that President Kimball offered in the special prayer circle with the Apostles and First Presidency on June 1st: Didn't you say he prayed essentially that God would give you all the inspiration necessary to do what was pleasing to the Lord and what was best for the blessing of His children? In addition to these details, I have tried to sequentialize what you told us about the revelations. The Twelve and First Presidency had a special prayer circle in the Salt Lake Temple on June 1st, where President Kimball prayed for guidance and inspiration in regard to Negroes. Then, one week later on June 8th, you all met again and the First Presidency presented the letter released on June 9th to all Church leaders to the Twelve in order to hear their reactions. A few members of the Twelve offered suggestions for a few changes in the document. Afterwards, all twelve Apostles voted in favor of the announcement. When we asked you if there was a written revelation, you said that the only written document was the June 9th letter--that it was considered to be sufficient. The next morning, all other general authorities met and voted in favor of the announcement. Then it was released to the press. I feel fairly certain as to the accuracy of these events, but just wanted to double-verify it with you. I recall Wesley asking if the Mormons still believe that Negroes were less valiant in the pre-mortal existence--this being a reason for their black skin. Didn't you say that the Brethren decided that the real reasons are still unknown? I do remember you saying that the Book of Abraham curse doctrine was considered with the pros and cons, and that you all decided that if Negroes live good lives, they are entitled to their blessings. I assume that this means no new interpretation of the Book of Abraham account? When we talked about intermarriage, I got the feeling that the Mormon Church will not encourage them, but if they occur, the [9] Church will support them. Is my perception accurate? I guess that's about it. We did talk about other things, but these stick out more in my mind as the important parts. When you reply, please let me know if this accurately represents what you told Wesley and I. I really appreciate your personal concern in answering all our questions. Very truly yours, Chris Vlachos [10] THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS The Council of the Twelve 47 East South Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150 September 12, 1978 Chris Vlachos 358 West 170 North Orem, Utah 84057 Dear Friend: This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of September 11th and I don't quite understand the purpose of your letter. The explanation I gave to you when you were here in my office I did not intend for public use. I thought it would be for your own information. I don't think there is anything more I need to add to what I told you at that time. It wouldn't please me if you were using the information I gave you when you were here in my office for public purposes. I gave it to you for your own information, and that is where I would like to see it remain. With all good wishes, I remain, Most sincerely yours, LeGrand Richards LR:mb [11] 358 West 170 North Orem, Utah 84057 15 September 1978 Elder LeGrand Richards LDS Church Office Bldg. 47 E. South Temple St. Salt Lake City, UT 84111 Dear Elder Richards, Thank you for your reply of 12 September. I am writing you again because your response left me very puzzled. After you told Wesley Walters and I the incidents surrounding the recent Negro revelation, we ask you if we could quote what you had said, and you said something to the effect that "Yes, you can quote me, for I have told you exactly what happened." Having been given that permission, I have told many people since our conversation of your personal story. Now you say that it was not intended for public transmission. Of course, I have no intention of publishing any of those events, but having received permission to share the story, I am writing you again to verify the main points. I will continue to share what you told us, and only wish to be sure that what I say is correctly representing what you said. The basic points of the story as I remember them are: 1. That the whole situation was provoked by the Brazilian temple affair. Apparently, most of the South American members would not have been able to use the temple due to their Negro ancestry. 2. President Kimball personally interviewed each of the Twelve Apostles on the Negro question, and asked you [12] all to prepare references for and against giving Blacks the Priesthood. 3. President Kimball's prayer offered at the June 1st prayer circle was that God would inspire you all to do what was pleasing to Him and what would be best for His children. 4. The letter sent to all Church officials was first presented to the Twelve Apostles by the First Presidency, and voted upon (affirmatively). This occurred one week after President Kimball's prayer for guidance. Elder LeGrand Richards 15 September 1978, p. 2 5. The official letter mentioned in point #4 was the only written document involved in the policy change. No written revelation or account of inspiration was otherwise produced. 6. No new interpretation of the Book of Abraham "curse" upon the descendants of Cain will be offered by the Mormon Church. You said that we still do not know why Blacks were cursed, and that the lack of valiancy in the pre-mortal existence is not a doctrine. The general feeling of the Brethren is that if Negroes live righteous lives, they are entitled to the same blessings as other members of the Church. 7. With reference to intermarriage, the Church does not encourage them, but if they occur, the Church will support them and allow temple sealings to take place. [13] As I mentioned in the first paragraph, you originally told us that we could quote you as having related these facts. This we will continue to do, but I truly wish to have your verification of the above seven points so that we do not mis-quote you. Thank you once again for your personal concern with this matter. Sincerely yours, Chris Vlachos [14] THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS The Council of the Twelve 47 East South Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150 September 19, 1978 Chris Vlachos 358 West 170 North Orem, Utah 84057 Dear Mr. Vlachos: This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of September 15th. The reason I replied to your last letter as I did was because some time ago I received a letter from someone down in your area, complaining about what you were saying. I don't remember just who the letter was from but I didn't feel that my interview with you was something that you would want to be publicizing all over. I don't have any objections to your telling it to a friend, as you have stated in your letter now of the 15th, I see nothing wrong in your statements reviewing our interview. I send my best regards. Sincerely yours, LeGrand Richards LR:mb |
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