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Rape In Lds Culture

There is an old article in the Deseret News about rape in Provo which brought a lot of questions in my mind. The article talks about some victims of rape who said things like:

"I should have died before I let him do that to me"

Interesting enough, this is NOT an isolated incident. Many LDS women believe and say similar things to the statement above. Some even quote Church leaders on this issue (I never saw any explicit statements about it, but if you all have please share). My points are:

1. Are we indirectly teaching to our Young Women in the Church that if you are a victim of rape you are losing your chastity?

2. Would you marry someone knowing she has been a victim of rape? Why/Why not?

3. The message of "Girls, dress modestly. Boys tend to have bad thoughts when they see you dressing immodestly" isn't in a way stating that the way a woman dresses MAY cause the woman in question to be raped?

In the end, the victim seem to be victimized twice...first on the rape itself then in thinking she is at fault for not "fighting hard" enough.

Thoughts?

https://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,515039389,00.html

Culture Lds Rape

I think the point of how one dresses is relative. If girls dress immodest, I think it can send a signal to the opposite sex that they are easier. With that said, I don't think that a rapist would ONLY go after someone dressed that way--modest women are raped all the time. I just think it can attract them--especially in a bar or somewhere like that. So I think it is important to be careful and teach our girls not only to dress modestly but the reason why.

The other point though, about them feeling like they didn't fight hard enough or so forth....I wonder if that comes from parents or friends more than the church? I know some have extremely low self esteem because of it happening but I think the church knows they are the victim. I think girls with a support system in place can heal from it but not necessarily forget about it.

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AlaskanLDS:

How is relative related to rape?

Not sure what you are trying to say, maybe you could please clarify? In my opinion, just because the way a girl dresses may send "signals" does not mean the girl looked to be raped because of the way she dressed but doesn't people indirectly make those statements? Like..."Oh, well...look at the way she dressed no wonder...." Or if a girl has been drinking..."Well, she was drinking...." We are implying somehow that these women looked to be raped and I think is a horrible way of looking at things.

First of all, let me clarify I completely agree with modesty in dressing and I think it is very important, if I have daughters I will teach about the sacredness of their body and so on but definitely I won't teach them that dressing modesty is a way of preventing rape because it is not.

I think most people think rape is related to sex but it has nothing to do with it, after all if a rapist wants sex so much they will pay for it. Rape is about control, power, violence, but is not related at all with whether a girl dresses immodestly or not. Rape victims come in all shapes and forms: prostitutes, nuns, widows, elderly women and even kids.

Not sure how long have you been a member but this thinking comes from the Church for a very long time "Better to die than to lose your chastity". For me, it is a dangerous statement because are we saying if a person falls victim of rape they are losing their chastity? Where in the world do we get that idea from?

Culture Lds Rape

I really hope not! There may be members and even leaders who think this way and I think it's sad. In the Handbook of Instructions, abortion is ok if pregnancy is due to rape. This, I feel, implies the Church is on the victim's side. The quote "it is better to die than to lose your chastity" doesn't necessarily relate to rape or similar. I think that sometimes it would be better to die than to willingly submit to sexual activities before marriage. If it's forced on you (rape) I personally feel there is nothing you can do, unless you really had a chance to escape. (And I do think most victims instinctively would try to do that)

Definitely yes, also knowing that she could have issues to struggle with related to sex after such an experience. Why would I hold it against her? I find it hard to find arguments not to do it.

As already mentioned by others, rape victims come in all "colors and shapes". You could say that immodest dressing may add to a man's sexual feelings. Not giving him an excuse, though. I also feel that we shouldn't teach our children that sexual thoughts are bad. They're just inappropriate under certain situations. That's what we need to teach the children. Stressing that they have bad thoughts may lead to the child feeling as if it's a bad person. I don't think it is bad for having such thoughts. They are just struggling with classifying thoughts to appropriate situations. (Makes sense?)

Just my few cents...

Culture Lds Rape

I thought I replied here but I guess I didn't! I know it was on my mind for many days after I read the responses.

First as LDS asked, I need to clarify that I was speaking of a certain type of rape. As mentioned already most random rapists aren't looking for sexual pleasure. In that circumstance, yes I would agree that dress does not matter much. But there are different kinds of rape and I think that one type the church does deal with on a more frequent basis is "date rape." And with that, yes, I still think it matters very much what they are wearing.

When a young (or older) woman is deciding what to wear for a date then it should not be revealing or immodest. It can be attractive without those things. I read I think before you were into fashion and modeling LDS, is it not true that most of the "worlds" fashions are meant to flatter and reveal? If someone is wearing something like that, it seems it would be because she is sending out the message that she is sexy in an immodest way. I think then if there is a situation where making out becomes close to crossing the line they may be forced into a situation because of the message they gave. Now please don't misunderstand me, I agree with joheri--

I do NOT feel it is an excuse for a man to feel he has the right, I am just saying that I think we should teach our children that dressing modestly lessens that potential, especially if dating a non member without the same standards.

Last, for now anyway

I have been a member for about 24 years. I have heard this before but I always thought it was more in reference to what joheri mentioned:

I don't disagree that could be taken that way about a rape victim, but I wonder if they don't feel that way themselves because they feel they are at fault, even though they AREN'T!
The second part

You know the actual question I guess to me would be the circumstances. That could be totally off, but I know Heavenly Father knows all, knows our hearts and our desires. He is a merciful judge and so I think as we are commanded to remain chaste--if you are raped in a situation where it is about control, power etc. then they took away your choice to remain that chaste, even if you have done everything in your power to be so. But (and again, I am not saying it is right, I am just saying it happens, if the circumstance becomes one of date rape because of your dress and actions--I feel you had a choice in the matter, at least from the start. I feel it can be a matter of consequence for bad choices.



Edited: AlaskanLDS on 20th Feb, 2008 - 10:58am

Rape In Lds Culture

AlaskanLDS, I think this is the main point where we disagree.

Rape it is ALWAYS about control and power and NOT about sex. There is no "If". I think most of us think is a "sex" issue because of the act in itself but has nothing to do with sex. At least, based on my research and the studies of many psychologists and doctors who deal with this issue on a daily basis.

Whether is a serial rapist, a "date" rape or a father raping his own daughter, in ALL these cases is about "control and power" and nothing to do with sexual gratification. After all, little we know how these victims "dressed" in the moment they have been raped.

As I said before, I absolutely agree with you on this! I am a big "pusher" (if you want to call me that *laughs*) of dressing modesty, my whole point is that as a mother I would teach my daughters to dress modesty because that's the right thing to do NOT because it will prevent them somehow of being raped because it is NOT true. If that was the case, nuns would not have been raped and they have been.

So if a woman dresses immodestly, goes to a date and she is raped, she loses her chastity? Is that what you are saying?

Rape Lds Culture

You are right! *smile* And we may have to agree to disagree. For example:

I think that there is RAPE when it is about control such as

, But in a date rape situation, I think it is more a LACK OF CONTROL. Does that make sense?

I am going on a limb here but I think again, in a date rape situation, it can be about sex.

Lets see, First I do agree with the fact that you should teach your daughters (and sons) to dress modestly because it is the RIGHT thing to do. But I disagree *smile* about the nuns, because I think they would be listed in that other catagory-not in a date rape situation. As stated before, we know that dress does not usually affect the other circumstances of rape.

I think I am getting too tired to think! ! I am having a hard time explaining. I am going to wait to answer this one until tomorrow (rather later today!) I want to make sure I say things in the right words.

Rape Lds Culture Mormon Doctrine Studies

I have to preface this by saying it is just my opinion, and coming from a male perspective (this is a mature subject so I assume I can be frank).

I have never understood the argument about rape not being about Sex at all. I am not a pervert and have never advocated Rape, its disgusting, and it sickens me that men cannot control themselves. Furthermore, rape is a violation of that which is most pure, and we should blame the Rapist and never the Victim.

This being said, the sex drive in men is very strong. Is there not some aspect of rape that involves a man taking something that he wants and doing it forcibly?

If someone steals something(a Car, Money, anything) from someone else there is an element of them trying to get power over someone else. But mainly isn't it about them wanting what someone else has.

If a man wants sex and he chooses to steal it, it is about sex, though a perverted and disgusting aspect of it.

Men have the uncanny ability to separate sexuality and love, a fact that gets us into trouble. Why do you think President Hinkley fought so hard against Pornography. It was about Sex, but a gross misuse of Sex.

When we say that Rape has nothing to do with Sex do we not deny the nature the what the Book of Mormon calls the "Natural Man", who without the Savior is at his base, wicked and in need of redemption?

Men, in particular, have to control their sexual passions or they will get into trouble. And regardless of how the young women dress in and out of the church, it is our responsibility as priesthood holders to understand that sexual relations must be kept within the bounds the Lord has set.


I admit that everything that I have written may be completely wrong, and I have had trepidations about posting this, but I have written it to foster discussion and resolve my own questions about this issue.