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Name: Artvalenz Country: Comments: To be quite - Page 6 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 21st Jul, 2014 - 12:32pm
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A Question From A Non-Mormon About the Translation - Page 6
And yet many say there is no proof of Moses and the Exodus ! and yet it happened .I hate to put a wrench in anyone's wheel but there is proof which shows up here and there and yet science puts a different tag or names and events on findings or place some non/anti bible person into something that seems iffie. They have found many different writings on different things. Isreal = The copper scroll has scriptures on it. Middle east =rosetta stone ,clay tablets, Lead tablet, etc stones dating back to the Old testiment in America's they find reformed writing (Same type as B.o.M.) here is a list of materials used:
QUOTE OSTRACA: is defined as pottery fragments commonly used as writing material, since they were cheaper than papyrus. The term is sometimes loosely used to include flakes of limestone. Inscribe with ink, potsherds were widely used for letters, receipts, school texts, etc. Important finds of ostraca have been made at Samria and Lachish.
PAPYRUS: is a tall, aquatic reed plant, Cyperus Papyrus, noted especially for its use for ancient writing material. The papyrus plant, so abundant in ancient Lower Egypt, is no longer found there. Plural: Papyri
LEATHER: The earliest use mention of leather documents is found in a text of the Fourth Egyptian Dynasty (2550 B.C.). A collection of Aramaic letters to Persian officials in Egypt dating from the fifth century B.C. Is all on leather. Mr. Kifa correctly says that leather in Mesopotamia could not survive. In Palestine the Dead Sea Scrolls survived, they were all written on leather, except the Copper Scroll. The Talmudic law required copies of the Hebrew Torah, which were intended for public worship to be inscribed on leather rolls.
PARCHMENT: is a writing material made from the skins of sheep or goats, which gradually supplanted papyrus because of its durability. Parchment began to replace leather in the third century A.D. Parchment differs from leather in not being tanned. A superior quality of parchment known as vellum was made from the skin of calves or kids. You may see a reference to parchments in II Tim. 4: 13. The Aramaic language, written in a cursive alphabetic script, was used in Mesopotamia during the Neo-Assyrian period, as is attested by Aramaic notations on some cuneiform tablets. Since papyrus or leather would be the usual writing materials in this case, they have long since perished in the dam Mesopotamian soil as mentioned correctly by Mr. Kifa. The dry weather conditions in Egypt made it possible to preserve the Aramaic Papyri of Elephetine.
STONE: In all ages stone has been used for inscriptions when a high degree of permanence was desired. Since stone was relatively scarce in Mesopotamia, however, so that cuneiform inscriptions on this material are confined almost exclusively to royal texts or public stelae like that which bears the Code of Hamurabi (Aramaic: Amo-your-Rabi=leader of the city dwellers=in Arabic: ra'iss sukkan almudun). In Syria-Palestine stone was likewise used for inscriptions in Aramaic or Canaanite intended for public display, such as the Moabite Stone, Siloam Inscriptions, etc.
METAL: was much less common than stone. To this belongs the copper scroll discovered at Qumran, popularly know as The Dead Sea Scrolls. Cuneiform inscriptions in Sumerian, Akkadian, and Old Persian were incised on objects made of gold, silver, copper, and bronze.
CLAY: Was the most readily available and thus the cheapest material for writing purposes in Mesopotamia. To this material belong the Sumero-Akkadian pictographic signs, which were written in peculiar cuneiform shapes. It later spread to the Hittites, Hurians, and Elamites. The use of clay was not confined to Mesopotamia and Anatolia, but spread to Syria-Palestine and Egypt when Akkadian became the language of international diplomacy. The best evidence of this is the correspondence between the Egyptian Pharaoh and the Babylonian, Mitannian, Hittite, and Atzawan rulers, as well as the local governors of the dependent states in Syria-Palestine between the fifteenth and thirteenth centuries B.C. That came to light by the discovery of Tell El-Amarna in Egypt.
POSTSCHRED: Is the use of pieces of broken and discarded pottery as a writing material. These Ostraca were available and less costly. We find them in Egypt from the Old Kingdom (2664-2155 B.C.). Texts written on Astraca have been found in Egyptian (Hieratic, demotic, and Coptic), Aramaic, and Greek. In Mesopotamia, Ostraca was used for Aramaic, which was written with pen and ink.
LINEN: Was another material used for writing. No trace of Linen writing was found in Western Asia, if indeed it was used. It was employed in Egypt, Italy. There is no indication of its use in biblical literature.
WOOD and BARK, found in Egypt. It was used in Mesopotamia, but perished. We know that from the depiction of scribes in the Assyrian reliefs of 700B.C. An eighth century B.C. Relief from Zinjirli in N. Syria shows a similar scene. There are many references in the Bible to the use of wood fro carving, they are found in the books of Num., Eze., Isa., Exod., and Luke. Source 8
PAPYRUS: is a tall, aquatic reed plant, Cyperus Papyrus, noted especially for its use for ancient writing material. The papyrus plant, so abundant in ancient Lower Egypt, is no longer found there. Plural: Papyri
LEATHER: The earliest use mention of leather documents is found in a text of the Fourth Egyptian Dynasty (2550 B.C.). A collection of Aramaic letters to Persian officials in Egypt dating from the fifth century B.C. Is all on leather. Mr. Kifa correctly says that leather in Mesopotamia could not survive. In Palestine the Dead Sea Scrolls survived, they were all written on leather, except the Copper Scroll. The Talmudic law required copies of the Hebrew Torah, which were intended for public worship to be inscribed on leather rolls.
PARCHMENT: is a writing material made from the skins of sheep or goats, which gradually supplanted papyrus because of its durability. Parchment began to replace leather in the third century A.D. Parchment differs from leather in not being tanned. A superior quality of parchment known as vellum was made from the skin of calves or kids. You may see a reference to parchments in II Tim. 4: 13. The Aramaic language, written in a cursive alphabetic script, was used in Mesopotamia during the Neo-Assyrian period, as is attested by Aramaic notations on some cuneiform tablets. Since papyrus or leather would be the usual writing materials in this case, they have long since perished in the dam Mesopotamian soil as mentioned correctly by Mr. Kifa. The dry weather conditions in Egypt made it possible to preserve the Aramaic Papyri of Elephetine.
STONE: In all ages stone has been used for inscriptions when a high degree of permanence was desired. Since stone was relatively scarce in Mesopotamia, however, so that cuneiform inscriptions on this material are confined almost exclusively to royal texts or public stelae like that which bears the Code of Hamurabi (Aramaic: Amo-your-Rabi=leader of the city dwellers=in Arabic: ra'iss sukkan almudun). In Syria-Palestine stone was likewise used for inscriptions in Aramaic or Canaanite intended for public display, such as the Moabite Stone, Siloam Inscriptions, etc.
METAL: was much less common than stone. To this belongs the copper scroll discovered at Qumran, popularly know as The Dead Sea Scrolls. Cuneiform inscriptions in Sumerian, Akkadian, and Old Persian were incised on objects made of gold, silver, copper, and bronze.
CLAY: Was the most readily available and thus the cheapest material for writing purposes in Mesopotamia. To this material belong the Sumero-Akkadian pictographic signs, which were written in peculiar cuneiform shapes. It later spread to the Hittites, Hurians, and Elamites. The use of clay was not confined to Mesopotamia and Anatolia, but spread to Syria-Palestine and Egypt when Akkadian became the language of international diplomacy. The best evidence of this is the correspondence between the Egyptian Pharaoh and the Babylonian, Mitannian, Hittite, and Atzawan rulers, as well as the local governors of the dependent states in Syria-Palestine between the fifteenth and thirteenth centuries B.C. That came to light by the discovery of Tell El-Amarna in Egypt.
POSTSCHRED: Is the use of pieces of broken and discarded pottery as a writing material. These Ostraca were available and less costly. We find them in Egypt from the Old Kingdom (2664-2155 B.C.). Texts written on Astraca have been found in Egyptian (Hieratic, demotic, and Coptic), Aramaic, and Greek. In Mesopotamia, Ostraca was used for Aramaic, which was written with pen and ink.
LINEN: Was another material used for writing. No trace of Linen writing was found in Western Asia, if indeed it was used. It was employed in Egypt, Italy. There is no indication of its use in biblical literature.
WOOD and BARK, found in Egypt. It was used in Mesopotamia, but perished. We know that from the depiction of scribes in the Assyrian reliefs of 700B.C. An eighth century B.C. Relief from Zinjirli in N. Syria shows a similar scene. There are many references in the Bible to the use of wood fro carving, they are found in the books of Num., Eze., Isa., Exod., and Luke. Source 8
I would be happy to paste in things found in America and Mexico That I do believe are from the nephites and jaredites Also WE only have a Quarter of the Book of Mormon not all of it was translated. (Church history and D&C ) and as far as duplicated scriptures. The jaredites had scriptures from Adam to probley eather Shem or Nehor somewhere in that area. But The Nephites They had all the old test up to 500 b.c which the old test. Ends with the eception of the Maccaebes .
reason that the old test. Is quoted in the Book of Mormon 1 Ne. 19: 23-24
QUOTE 23 And I did read many things unto them which were written in the abooks of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet bIsaiah; for I did cliken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our dprofit and learning.
24 Wherefore I spake unto them, saying: Hear ye the words of the prophet, ye who are a aremnant of the house of Israel, a bbranch who have been broken off; chear ye the words of the prophet, which were written unto all the house of Israel, and liken them unto yourselves, that ye may have hope as well as your brethren from whom ye have been broken off; for after this manner has the prophet written.
2 Ne. 6: 5 5 And now, the words which I shall read are they which Isaiah spake concerning all the house of Israel; wherefore, they may be alikened unto you, for ye are of the house of Israel. And there are many things which have been spoken by Isaiah which may be likened unto you, because ye are of the house of Israel.
2 Ne. 11: 2, 8 2 And now I, Nephi, write amore of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him. 8 And now I write asome of the words of Isaiah, that whoso of my people shall see these words may lift up their hearts and rejoice for all men. Now these are the words, and ye may liken them unto you and unto all men.
24 Wherefore I spake unto them, saying: Hear ye the words of the prophet, ye who are a aremnant of the house of Israel, a bbranch who have been broken off; chear ye the words of the prophet, which were written unto all the house of Israel, and liken them unto yourselves, that ye may have hope as well as your brethren from whom ye have been broken off; for after this manner has the prophet written.
2 Ne. 6: 5 5 And now, the words which I shall read are they which Isaiah spake concerning all the house of Israel; wherefore, they may be alikened unto you, for ye are of the house of Israel. And there are many things which have been spoken by Isaiah which may be likened unto you, because ye are of the house of Israel.
2 Ne. 11: 2, 8 2 And now I, Nephi, write amore of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him. 8 And now I write asome of the words of Isaiah, that whoso of my people shall see these words may lift up their hearts and rejoice for all men. Now these are the words, and ye may liken them unto you and unto all men.
Notice that Nephi says that he writes with a purpose to benefit the spiritual well being of man and nothing else .
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Post Date: 19th Jul, 2014 - 12:41pm / Post ID: #
Translation the Non-Mormon From Question A
Name: Brick
Country: 
Comments: To Happy LDS/robvmtr:
Happy. The reason I repeat myself is because it is such a valid question and no one answers it in a logical manner. Robvmtr has posted a long message talking about all the different things that have been written upon. All well and good. But I still want to know what happened to the remains of 2 million people who died near the Hill Cumorah. Since Moroni was one of the last survivors, who buried all of the 2 million? What became of all of their stuff? You can complain that I repeat myself, but no one can really explain HOW 2 million people, along with all of their homes, fortresses, animals, armour, food, garbage, etc. Etc. Can literally "disappear"?
Were not talking about a group of people traveling through the desert-----we are talking about 2 million "bodies"----whether you want to just brush it off or not, that is one heck of a lot of people to just simply "vanish". Funny----the "plates" survived all of that time----but not one piece of armor, dwelling, palace, weapon survived. Very convenient.
Oh well, you're not going to listen anyway it appears---looks like you'll believe anything.
Post Date: 20th Jul, 2014 - 12:34am / Post ID: #
Page 6 Translation the Non-Mormon From Question A
Name: Brick
Country:
Comments:
QUOTE (EAG) perhaps god buried them like he buried Moses.
Well, as I stated people, it sounds like you are willing to believe anything. You're willing to believe that God buried 2 million people "just like he buried Moses", or that the people are in the water that was used in the flood. However, the flood happened thousands of years ago---these two million people died around 400 A.D. Or so. And what reason would God have for "hiding" two million corpses? If the history is correct, why not allow remains to be found? Almost all Biblical stories that mention cities---later the cities are confirmed to have existed---at least in 95% of cases (Sodom and Gomarrah were "utterly destroyed" so they haven't been found, but many other cities have). God apparently wanted an historical record in those cases---why not in the case of the Hill Cumorah? But because we can't find any record of these two million people, it's easy---just say anything--maybe God just buried all of them in a secret place.
Let me give you a much better reason. When Joseph Smith wrote the story he thought "But what if they ask where the two million people "disappeared to" when they go looking for archaeological remains?" Then he thought "Not to worry, they consider me a prophet, and therefore they will be gullible enough to believe anything I tell them. In fact they will be so willing to believe what I tell them that they will make up their own explanations to defend what I am writing". I truly believe this to be the case. Just look at your statement above. It borders on the ridiculous. Why not investigate---really ask yourself how 2 million people could disappear? Maybe a huge spaceship came down and vacuumed them all up and took them to Kolob. Come on---seriously---get real and really think this out.
Rather off topic, but...
Am I being sarcastic? Of course I am. When someone gives an explanation as "far out" as EAG gives above, I can't help myself.
Am I being sarcastic? Of course I am. When someone gives an explanation as "far out" as EAG gives above, I can't help myself.
Post Date: 20th Jul, 2014 - 2:35am / Post ID: #
Translation the Non-Mormon From Question A
Name: October
Country:
Comments: Brick, your original concerns are valid. Yes, the directly plagiarized passages from a bible which bares a very broken resemblance to the original scrolls are a very big hit against the BoM, but one which most LDS will brush away with very little thought - keep in mind that the church's officially accepted English interpretation of the bible is the KJV. It is easy to justify this flaw by assuming that if the KJV was the most correct translation, and the BoM is perfect, it is also somewhat acceptable to assume that the wording would be identical in places. While I disagree with this logic, I was raised in the church - and it took me less than a minute to loop-hole my way into that justification.
Your concern about there being no evidence of the plates & peoples is another valid concern.. . But I am gathering, from your posts, that you may well be a Christian. This would mean that you believe in a God who was born into a body as a human male, without the use of sperm, who spent his life raising the dead without CPR, curing people of disease without medication, fed multitudes by multiplying food sources, walked atop a body of water, died on a cross in less than a day, came back to life after being dead for three days, saved you from the sins that he had already set you up to commit, and who plans to return to the earth one day to save it from a devil.. . All in the name of miracles and mysterious ways.
I am not bashing your religion here - I'm simply pointing out that religion does not require that things be logical. If you are picking and choosing logical debates to best fit what you are and are not comfortable believing, then your arguments become irrelevant. They believe, despite the facts or lack thereof, because it is what they are comfortable believing. Just as you believe what you are comfortable with, and I what I am comfortable with.
Religion is not a logical world. It is a world of faith, dedication, and confusion. When arguing one's stance or position on faith, your best avenue is to present your facts, and then ask the receiver to decide for themselves if they are comfortable believing in a God who would allow such things. Insisting that a God *wouldn't* do those things will get you no where. In example, I am not comfortable worshiping a God who would require blind faith in order to be saved, drown a planet because people stopped worshiping him, or ask a man to kill his son just to prove his love for God. Can I prove that a God would not do those things? Of course not. I can, however, choose not to give such a God my respect or affection.
I suppose my only purpose in this post is to remind you that everyone has illogical beliefs regarding *something*.. . Just keep that in mind next time you start a debate.
Post Date: 21st Jul, 2014 - 2:18am / Post ID: #
A Question From A Non-Mormon About the Translation
To brick (Who is obviously as thick as a brick), I wasn't suggesting that the flood swept away the remains. I was being sarcastic simply inferring that, as a christian you believe some things that make no sense and can not be logically explained. One example of that is the flood, there is not enough water to cover the top of every mountain as the bible says where is your proof that this actually happened? Where is your proof that man was formed from dust and that the world was created in 7 days and is only 5000 years old? These are the same types of questions that you bring against the claims in the book of Mormon. Yet you have no problem believing the same outlandish illogical claims in the bible. Your being more than a little hypocritical. I have thought about how some of the things in the book of Mormon can be and it puzzles me just as much as some of the claims of the bible, they are equally outlandish but, I still believe them both.
A Question From Non-Mormon the Translation - Page 6
There is actually very much proof that the lands in the book of Mormon did in fact exist. Around the exact time of the tower of babel, there is record of a civilization in meso-america called the Olmecs. These in my opinion were the Jaredites that were spoke of in the book of Ether. Many years later this civilization somehow disappeared,And the Mayans replaced them. In the Book of Ether it talks about 2 leaders of the Jaredites that caused everyone to fight in an enormous battle that did infact kill everyone of the Jaredite citizens except for one. This one was also talked about in the book of Mosiah, and his name was Coriantomur. Coriantomur wandered around and eventually found a civilization, that had come from Jeruselum before the Nephites. The Nephites met these people, and the civilizations conjoined. These people became the Nephites, and are what we know as the Mayans. The Mayans existed from 2000 b. C. Till 250 b. C. This time period is the exact time period when Lehi and family left Jerusalem till when the Nephites became wicked 250 years after Christ visited. When they became wicked it says somewhere in Mormon that the Lamanites started to sacrifice, and even cannibalize to a degree. In my opinion this sounds alot like the Aztecs who used to sacrifice living people to their gods. If you need even more proof I had a teacher who went down to that area and visited a Mayan temple that had a room that had a stature of a God that lived in heaven. The room next to that room had another statue of a God that was the son of the first God. This God "supposedly" came to earth as Jesus did in 3rd Nephi. He also promised to come back someday which was why it was so easy to convince the Aztecs when the Spanish came to the America's that they were Gods. Because the only white man with a beard they had seen was Jesus. Also in the room next to the second room was another supposed God that was invisible and couldn't be seen that would warn you if anything would hurt you. If this doesn't sound like the Holy Ghost then I don't know what does. All three of these make up the God head. If that's not proof for you then I don't know what is. To me thats the most logical proof there is, but somethings you just have to go with faith and believe that they are true. We aren't supposed to know every thing otherwise it wouldn't be faith, but knowledge instead. He doesn't want us to act on knowledge, but on faith. I know that the Book of Mormon is true, and I have the utmost testimony that it is another testament to the Bible, and that it proves that the Bible is true.
Post Date: 21st Jul, 2014 - 12:32pm / Post ID: #
A Question From Non-Mormon the Translation Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 6
Name: Artvalenz
Country:
Comments: To be quite honest.. . There is absolutely NO proof that the places described in the BOM ever existed. The academic world (Which is no supporter of Christianity) has long established that the BOM is a fictional work, with NO factual basis. If I am wrong on this, please point me to a non-Mormon reference. Thanks.
TOPIC: A Question From A Non-Mormon About the Translation