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Behold His Face - Page 3

I do not disagree with Paul in the least. I just believe we have to take into context who he was talking to in his "Grace" Epistles. He was talking to members of the nascent Christian church who were Jewish. They argued that they were saved by there works as numerated under the the Law of Moses. They had not realized that the law of Moses was to bring people to Christ and that they were saved by the Grace of Christ(Christ's atonement).

Romans 3:27

Furthermore

I am in complete agreement with these statements. I also believe in the words of James who was writing to Christians who believed they did not have to perform good works as evidence of the grace that Christ freely gave.

Fortunately we have other scripture that clear up these two seemingly contrary statements.


The Book of Mormon teaches that we are indeed saved by the Grace of God.

It also teaches that after we receive that grace we should endure to the end, relying on the merits and Grace of the Savior to overcome the natural man.
2 Nephi 31:19-20

We can only return to our Father by the Merits, Mercy and Grace of the Holy Messiah (The teachings of Paul). Then though his Merits, Mercy and Grace we are given the power to press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, enduring to the end and keeping his commandments( the teachings of James) and work toward becoming perfect (the teachings of Christ.)

The reason for the Grace of our Savior is for us to overcome the natural man. God will judge us on our desire to overcome sin, as well as our attempts. If there is no desire to improve and that desire is not followed up by some action, then the Grace of Christ cannot help us return to the presence of our Father. This is the law of Faith as described by Paul.

I really do not think we are disagreeing that much on this subject.

Face Behold

I am not sure what you are referring to as the "grace epistles"? Romans which you quote was written for a Roman gentile audience with a Jewish minority \about the spring of 57 A.D. Furthermore Galatians is thought to believed to be addressed to the churches in the north-central Asia Minor area where the Gauls invaded and settled. However you are correct in assuming that there were judaizers in the area who contended with Paul. Their argument was that Paul was not an authentic apostle because he was trying to make the message appealing to the Gentiles. But again in the end it is Paul's message that by faith alone that one is to live out his new life in the freedom of the Spirit.
Remember James the brother of Jesus and Paul are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. James the Bishop of Jerusalem was very Jewish and wanted to keep the customs of the day, while Paul was on the other end of the spectrum. (See acts as reference.) Even today Jewish Messianicism sees James as there hero, and Paul as the apostate per say. James is a very distinctive Jewish letter and is writing to a very Jewish audience


Now with that said, Yes works are important but they do not save. Works are the fruit as Paul would suggest of ones faith. For even all of your works are not perfect, you can never do any work perfect. Besides your works are a form of grace. It is by god's grace that you were inspired to do them. It is by His grace that you were enabled to perform them. They are nothing that you could do on your own without his intervention.
For LDS one thing I find unique and priceless from other Christians is our use of ordnances which fit into our idea of salvation. For LDS atonement and progression are experiences with God. We come to earth to learn, grow and experience to some degree life and God in a physical body. Ordnances are nothing more then ritualized experiences with God. When we are baptized as Paul says, we experience his death and resurrection and we begin to participate in his life and us in His. That is called grace. Even in the temple we experience and participate the cross with Christ.

So atonement is a type of shared experience with Christ. It is here that works comes into play. We experience this grace through our actions and works.
With that said it is by grace that we are saved. It is our works by which we experience and understand his life and grace. that is why faith without works is dead. So yes works are important, it is where we put His grace to work and experience his life, but they would not move us anywhere if we were not already saved by His grace.

Correct only through his grace are we saved, works have nothing to do with this. Again Nephi stresses that your ability to do works comes from Christ's efforts, not yours so works are a form of grace in which we share Christ life.

I think this is the sticking point for me. I am not sure what you mean by "for us to overcome the natural man." We do not overcome the natural man, but rather Christ overcomes it for us. I am also not sure what you mean by desire to improve is not followed up by some action that Christ cannot help us return? First I believe that Christ does not help us return, but rather is the sole reason for my return to Father. I am also not sure why there has to be ab action requirement. What if all that I can do at that very moment in my life is just hanging on and believing? If that is all I can do then why is that not sufficient? I think it is, because my works do nothing to save me, but rather provide an opportunity to grow in a already saved/redeem relationship with God as Paul assumes. If this was not the case I would always be wondering if I am saved or not. How can I be alive in Christ if I do not know where I stand with him?

As for God's judgment I guess it depends upon what and how you define sin, and how the atonement responds to sin. I for one do not prescribe to a penal substitution atonement theory although many do. (and that is OK) Which basically says that Jesus came to suffer for my sins, or to substitute himself in my place to pay physically and/or spiritually for my sin. So I guess in a deeper understanding then would be in how we view atonement, because for me it means something different then I think you prescribe too. Am I correct in assuming that?
In a quick summery, I see sin as anything that separates us from God in a relationship stand point. (which on the surface sounds like and includes what most LDS believe, but I am tend to not see sin as a breaking of some kind cosmic law) I see Christ as coming down to reveal to us the Father and his nature, while at the same time exposing our sinful nature that keeps us out of atonement with Father. This includes showing us our prejudices, and our since of justice and demands that we place on others for their trespasses. This is why I am so grace centered.

Behold His Face Studies Doctrine Mormon

According to this scripture our" work" is to put off the natural man. Of course I am with you that this cannot be done without the grace of Jesus Christ and complete faith in his power to save.

Still we are responsible to put off the natural man or in other words "do" the things that King Benjamin is enumerating. There are many, many countless things that only Christ can do for us. But only we can submit our wills to the higher will of our God and our Christ (submitting is in fact a work and is expressed in words such as submit, being humble, and meek). That, (submitting our wills) is something Christ cannot do for us, and is a work that is necessary for our salvation. I agree with you that it is the Atonement of Christ that fully Saves us in the end. But I believe works (ordinances, submission, humility, and faith) are necessary, (we cannot be saved without them) but are not sufficient (entirely insufficient as Paul teaches) without the sealing power of the Savior(Grace).


There is also a lot of talk about becoming (becoming a Saint, becoming like a little child) in the above scripture. This is not a passive endeavor, and it is not one that comes without effort or work. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and the scriptures teach a Gospel of work, of improvement. If we are saved (as understood by protestant and evangelical thought) in one moment and then our lives are not improved incrementally or dramatically, but most importantly continually, then our salvation is stagnant and incomplete and we are in fact @Damned in the literal sense (stopped in our forward progress). Salvation as I understand it, is an ongoing process of "becoming" and not a singular event in our lives that happens in our past. (Joseph Smith in fact taught that man may fall from grace and depart from God D&C 20:32)

Furthermore King Benjamin taught

We are in fact judged by our works whether they be evil or whether they be good. Paul taught the same thing in other words.

Romans 13:4

Paul also taught that we should have some healthy fear for our salvation, if we continue to do evil, without thought for the consequences of those evils, regardless of our being in a Saved condition. That was what I meant when I said that I might shrink in the presence of Christ if I were to see him today. I still "doeth evil" on occasion, and am in need of some "putting off" of the natural man as discussed by King Benjamin. I am sure that my condition is not unique.

Rather off topic, but... I never understood why there was such a disagreement in the Christian world about Faith Vs. Work. There should not be argument about faith vs. work, as faith is in fact a work on our part. We are saved by the grace of Christ after all we can do as the Book of Mormon teaches. Faith and Works are different sides of the same coin and bring us to the Same thing. To our Savior Jesus Christ and his atonement and our utter reliance on his redeeming blood. We cannot be saved without our Savior, and we cannot be saved without taking some responsibility for our own actions (see second article of faith).

Page 3 Face Behold

Romans 13:4

I am not sure what this has to do with works. This chapter in Romans is specifically talking about how to behave with earthly authority. I.e. Caesar. Thew minister that he is talking about is Caesar or Roman rule. He is saying if you evil then be afraid of Rome, but if you live the laws Rome will protect you. Remember this was a big conflict among Christians, and Paul being a roman citizen and having roman law save him plenty of times he really saw it as a good thing.

Obedience/works etc are our responses to Christs grace. That is what Paul and Mosiah are telling us. We are commanded to obedience and works for the purpose of others and not for our purposes alone. I do not think I or other grace centered person would say works are not important. They are. It is how we respond to Christ grace. Once we are saved by his grace, we then are commissioned to pick up His cross and change the world. That change comes from obedience. There is no better way to change the world then to be like Christ. That is our response to his forgiveness. remember we are saved in spite of our sinful state/carnal man. Ridding of the natural man is our response to his forgiveness. Remember the woman who was to be stoned. She was forgiven and then told to go sin no more. This sin no more was a response that comes to all of us once we are forgiven.
The Latan word for obedience is: obey der e` (forgive my latan spelling) which means to listen as you would listen to a teacher, to learn from him. This takes place after we are saved.

Nephi is right in saying we are saved by grace after all we can do. I like Brother Stephen Robinson's view on this passage in that even after all we can do it just is not good enough to save us. It still comes down to grace, because of efforts just will not do.
The thing is that there is no scale or amount of good deeds that we need to do in order to tip the scale in order for Christ to save us. If this were so then we we went from one creditor the law to another demanding creditor in Christ who demands a form of payment in order to be satisfied to save us. This is simply not Biblical.

Our works do not qualify us for grace. If that was so then Alma would have never been saved. Instead our works are a response to his grace. We do our works because we have been redeemed and tasted his love, and we are empowered by him to become better. We become better because of what he already has given us.

I am not sure how the 2nd article of faith fits in with this idea. It just says that we are not punished for the sins of others, only our own. That is correct, sin is real, and we will be held accountable for it, but forgiveness comes through accepting Christ not me working off some debt. I am not sure how being accountable for ones sins nullifies being saved by grace?

Theologically no faith is not a work, but using LDS language as we tend to do then I can kind of agree with your point here. faith to me is a state of being not a work. It is a decision to be and it involves trust that Jesus is going to do what he promised to do and that is save me. My works are a response to my faith and his grace. I do what I do not so that I may be saved, but rather because I am. I am obedient because I am thankful for what he has done for me, and being Christ like is the best way to do my part to make the world a better place. I never have to question if I have done enough, because already Christ has.

Face Behold

Okay, I think we are not so far apart.

I believe that we are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus and that it is only though his mercy that we are saved, and that we can only really bring forth good works through the Spirit.

These are all requirements for exaltation (as Paul stated without Charity, our faith is nothing.)


But after we have received these good gifts we need to bring forth good fruits or we will be hewn into the fire.

This implies that one must bring forth good fruit after they have been redeemed. It explicitly states that those who do not bring forth good fruit will be hewn into the fire.
But these good works, I believe, only come through the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Behold His Face

Yes we are closer. We are redeemed by grace, and our good works are our response to his love and grace. That is why John says if you love me keep my commandments. In other words as John says in 1 John we love Him because He (Christ) loved us first. Thus our love a natural effect of Christ's love. Thus our works is our response to his Love. If you love me- the response to his love- then keep my commandments. So yes we will know them by their fruits. Meaning that the redeemed can be identified in the world by there response to Christ which is there works. Therefore you will know who is redeemed by there works. So we should be asking ourselves, "now that we have been redeemed, how is it that I will respond to this change and new freedom?" Answer I will be like Christ so that I can make a difference with others. And he will continue to enable me to do this through his grace."

Behold Face - Page 3

We have to be changed physically (either transfigured or in the spirit) in my opinion to see the face of God.


Isiah53


We agree we are saved by the grace of Christ. But, if there is not the fruits of obedience, has a person been saved?

I am not sure that the anyone can really know if another is redeemed, especially with our imperfect sense of each other. I suppose we could perceive our own redeemed state, but I am not even sure I would be confident in declaring that I was redeemed from all my sins.
I do not know if I am a wheat or a tare yet and it scares me.

Behold Face Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

If I may be so bold with out being offensive. I would say where is your faith? Do you not have faith IN Jesus. Do you not have faith that he will do what he promised you that he would do? Did you not make covenants in the Temple, and at baptism? As Stephen Robenson says where then is your faith in Christ? We all have faith in who he is and what he did, but the challenge is having faith in him, meaning having faith that he will do what he told us he would do which is to save us in spite of our sins? As my mission President always said to us if you do not think that you are saved in the Kingdom of god then what are you doing in the LDS church? You better go find a church that can promise you that. That is what Hope is: "having the full expectation coupled with faith of obtaining eternal life and the kingdom of God" I think this is where we part ways. I know that I am saved and will be in the celestial kingdom. I have no doubt, but rather faith. Because I believe that Christ will do what he promised to do. Will I still sin? Yes, Even to my grave. But as I grow in this knowledge and assurity of this promise I begin to learn how to respond to this gift of grace through being obedient. I am obedient not because it will save me, but rather because I am save I have the opportunity to grow and progress and simply because I want to be like Him. This is the good news.

I think that you can. Have you ever seen those who have the image of Christ in there countenance? I see many on Sundays and at the Temple. I have seen many who are counted among the redeemed? Sure they still sin, and may struggle and fall in this life, but I also have faith that Christ will do what he promised them. I am sure you are saved as well in the Kingdom of God. Because I am assuming you have been baptized and to the temple and have the same blessing and promises that I have. most importantly I know that God is more merciful and forgiving then I or anyone gives him credit for. I have faith in him that he will get you there. I also can tell you your responses to grace that you have given in this forum. You seem to strive to be obedient- your response to his grace. That is your fruit, and from what I can tell it is good, despite your struggles and short comings.

All I can say is thank God for a God that is perfect in his redemption and and mercy. He knew when we came to earth that we would fall and sin. luckily he made provisions for all of that. I think that we LDS at times need to " be still and know that He is God."