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Behold His Face - Page 2

I think Appearance only will matter in that we will have, if we are worthy, a countenance similar to that of Christ's.

We will look different, but it will be the result of an internal change rather then the external things that the world worships (nice clothes, pride in our external appearance.

But the Kingdom of God or rather the place where God dwells is a place where Spiritual uncleanliness cannot be tolerated, regardless of God's love for us.


1 Nephi 15:34

This leads me to believe that the judgment discussed above will not take place in the Kingdom of God, or where God lives. It must, in my opinion take place in some other place where people of varying cleanliness can face God in a Kingdom they are able to
dwell in.

I do believe:
In mortal life, however, the Lord takes us in our imperfections, and if we are humble and come to him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit (The prodigal son came in such manner) , he can purge the uncleanliness from us, and sanctify our lives so that we can do his will.

But, I do not think if we continue in unrighteous living, regardless of the atonement that has been made for us, that God will or can bring us into his Kingdom.. We must never become comfortable in wickedness because we believe that Christ will be merciful to us in the future.

Rather off topic, but... I think I would feel very uncomfortable standing in front of Christ at this point in my life. I know and feel some of my own unworthiness, and would shrink because of some of my thought and actions. I struggle everyday to repent and draw closer to my Father in Heaven, but I also have a keen awareness of my reliance on the atonement of Christ to draw closer to him.

Face Behold

I personally feel that I would not be uncomfortable in God's presence right now. In fact I am sure that I would welcome it. AM I a sinner? yes, I sin, everyday. But at some point I have to have faith in Christ that he has taken care of all of that, despite my continuous failings and misdeeds.
Hope is the desire of faithful people, coupled with the FULL EXPECTATION, of achieving eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. This definition was given to me by my mission Pres. who writes the church priesthood manuals for his profession and does the know your religion and BYU education week.
As he said if you have hope you have a FULL expectation that you will enter the kingdom of God. I feel that I have that,despite my failings. At some point I feel that we all have to be converted to this despite our sins and weaknesses and feel comfortable abiding with God in such state. That is complete submission IMO.
I think that we God more sacred then he is. And what I mean by this is the word sacred means to make separate. Thus when we make God sacred, we separate him from others. That to me is counter intuitive of the atonement. When we separate him from sinners, we make him unreachable. Remember If Jesus is like that father, and if God cannot be in the presence of Sinners, then Jesus then logically would not be around sinners as well. If sinners were uncomfortable around God, then sinners would be uncomfortable around Jesus this was not the case. If God demanded a sacrifice of another for sin, then Jesus too would have demanded another for the sacrifice for sin. If Jesus willingly would rather die so us then to see us suffer then we can say that Father would rather die for us then to see us suffer. If Jesus freely forgave, then Father would freely forgive.

Behold His Face Studies Doctrine Mormon

Perhaps this is not literal but symbolic. Even if it were literal why would we not be able to see God if we are in spirit form? I believe the reference to not seeing God in the flesh is based on a MORTAL sinful man as many men have seen God in the flesh and lived to tell about it.

Page 2 Face Behold

I have always been under the assumption that Christ is the Judge of us all, so I think it would be most accurate to say that we would see the face of Christ when we are judged.


As to being uncomfortable being in front of God or Christ.
There is a separation from God, that can only be bridged by the Atonement. This does not cover us if we remain carnal, and continue doing our favorite sins. Christ's atonement does not cover our sins unless we are continually repenting and attempting to overcome our daily sins. Repentance can be painful, in that it involves remorse, and a purging that goes from some pain to the most intense joy.

Furthermore

Alma 41 3-4

A loving God will not let us in his Kingdom, if our desires throughout our lives have been carnal and we are unrepentant. He has reserved his kingdom those who have remained faithful in all things and have been redeemed through his son. Such a Kingdom where the unrepentant sinner and the Saint are found in the same place would denote a God who does not love his Children.

Christ never said we wouldn't suffer for our own sins, but that we wouldn't suffer even as he suffers. Sometimes (if not always) we suffer in this life for our sins as a natural consequence of the sin. There is a law that has been broken and there are times where the consequences are painful. Infidelity brings hurt feelings and broken homes, debased thoughts drive away the Spirit. Sin always brings suffering in this life to a certain extent regardless of future repentance. Repentance however can take away the ultimate suffering that results from unrepentant sin, but it cannot take away the pain that is involved in the Lord purging the sin from our lives. A loving Father always lets his Children learn from the consequences of bad decisions (causal suffering), but redeems us from the lasting effects of sin if we repent. That is the only way a child will ever learn from his or her mistakes, and is part of our test here on earth.

Edited: dbackers on 24th Jun, 2008 - 2:55am

Face Behold

In using that example it was symbolical. I do not believe that our Fathers home will be a big banquet either--I was just trying to explain how one might feel uncomfortable at a formal event in jeans. Different from everyone else there and a bit out of place. I think that if we are not repentant of our sins on a regular basis then it might feel like this. Does that explain it any better?

Isiah53 said:

I like this idea and the example of the prodigal son is a great one to use. I do think that the difference is the prodigal son repented and came back. I think the father knew he was repentant when he saw him. Just my opinion. If we are repentant in this life, as was the prodigal son, I feel the Lord will accept us, after the atonement is put into play.

Rather off topic, but... Can I ask the name of the instructor/MP? I am going to BYU education week in about 2 months!

Behold His Face

Yes but the problem is that we do continue to sin, and you will always will. That is the hard facts. If we go by the above assumptions then no one would have the atonement in there lives and no one would ever improve.
As Paul says we all have sinned. This is the dilemma that we all face. So it is like we have God on a spiritual yo-yo. we bring him closer, we sin and we push him farther. It goes back and forth, back and forth. In this paradigm we dictate to God who and when he can save.
The problem with this is that we can never be secure in his presence. We are always wondering, and fearing. This is no relationship. The point is that the atonement covers. As Paul would argue in Romans that once we are his we are saved despite the fact that we still will sin, as long as we have faith in him. Which means that we continue to abide in him, and strive and struggle with him. The amazing thing about the atonement is that it saves us DESPITE our sins and our continuous sinful nature. If he waits for us to come to some state of complete forsaken of sin state we will never be saved. It is through the atonement that we are able to forsake all sin.

Why would he not? To love requires one to give to one who does not deserve. Is not the telestial, terestial not his kingdoms? Are they not degrees of glory? Does this not mean that even those who do not accept his gospel to its fullest extent get to live in his kingdom with glory? I think that it does. So why would not a sinner not live in his kingdom and glory?

You are absolutely right. Sin is messy and it hurts. I think we as LDS really do not understand sin. IMO. (I think that we are learning very quickly though these days.)
Sin is painful, it hurts lives. I think that is what the atonement takes away is that pain.
I am not to certain about the laws being broken. I just do not buy cosmic laws that we break when we sin. You know Joseph never really taught that. But that is for another discussion.
I also do not think that the spirit leaves us when we sin. I do not think that the bible teaches us that. In fact it teaches the opposite. The greek word used in the gospel for the holy ghost is paraclete. Which we translate into meaning comforter. The word in paraclete means "public defender" one who defends the sinner or offender in a court of law. He is the one who defend the guilty, the very job of the paraclete is to stick with the sinner or offender and defend him. This definition in itself means that the holy ghost does not leave the sinner, but rather stays with him. That is why Tendal translated it as comforter. Meaning when do you need to most comfort in your life? When you sin. That is an interesting meaning that we as LDS do not get unfortunately. It is beautiful to know that I have a comforter in times of sin, who will tally with me despite my sin and will stand with me to bring me back to my Father's presence.

Rather off topic, but... AlsakanLDS my M/P is named David A. Christenson. He has since retired from CES but he is such a in demand speaker that he still does the know your religion. You can find a few of his talks at desserett book on CD.

Behold Face - Page 2

When I speak of His Kingdom, I speak of the Celestial Kingdom or the place that he is. In no other place are we able to dwell with him and know him as we did in the pre-mortal life. All other kingdoms do not have access to his full presence and are in fact inferior to the Celestial Kingdom in glory.

I never said that the sinner could never come to God. Notice, I was speaking of the unrepentant sinner. I am a very strong believer that we all fall short of the Glory of God in this life. But this does not excuse us from having to make and keep sacred covenants that require us to strive to be obedient. We do fall, but we must speedily repent. A person who ignores his covenants, and postpones repentance indefinitely cannot dwell with God.

Mosiah 26:6

We should never become comfortable with the fact that we sin. We can, however have a very strong relationship with our Savior, as we strive to overcome our weaknesses, having a hope in Christ that he can make our weaknesses strong unto us.


Mosiah 4:10

The purpose of repenting is to cleanse, but it is also is a process of becoming. Forsaking sin is a necessary part of receiving forgiveness for sin and to improve our lives (I.e. the parable of the talents) . As the scriptures say the natural man is an enemy to God and will be forever. Unrepentant sin (which binds us to the natural man) keeps us separated from the spirit because it makes us an enemy to God. The atonement cannot redeem the openly rebellious of us (I have been in this group before and to a certain extent I am still there) because God requires a contrite spirit and a broken heart. The spirit cannot and will not continue to dwell with a people that are not continually trying to overcome the natural man. Once we become apathetic to to the fight to overcome the natural man the Savior has promised he will withdraw his spirit, unless we speedily repent.

Alma 41 9-10

If the atonement is not making a change in our life, where we gradually lose the desire for sin and day by day through the atonement of Christ begin to overcome our sins, then the atonement of Christ is not being utilized to its fullest. We have to change and not just become satisfied with the fact that we sin everyday. We should say as Nephi did and declare.

2 Nephi 4 27:28

God's atonement is one of Purifying, Sanctifying, and ultimately Perfecting and can be the most satisfying and awe inspiring of processes. But we, as members of Christ's Church have a greater responsibility to overcome sin.

Doctrine and Covenants 82:3

Finely, if we continue in sin without speedily repenting on a daily basis, the Lord has promised that his Spirit can be taken away from us.

My belief is that we should come unto Christ, lay our sins at his feet and pray that he would take the desire to sin away from us. We should pray daily that He will forgive us of our sins and give us the desire to overcome sin .

If we humbly seek his face, we ultimately will do so, and he will welcome us with open arms. He will change our carnal and base desires into righteous and exalted desires, and accept us as his sons and daughters. And if we are true and faithful He will make us his, and we will stand at his right hand and we will be blessed. That is my desire and my hope and what I strive for,though imperfectly, everyday.

Behold Face Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

dbackers, good post.


It sounds like you disagree with Paul because I basically just spit out Romans and Galatians to you. First thought lets make some distinctions here. There are 2 things I think that is being confused. justification and sanctification They mean different things. First I want to say that in no way have I advocated that we should be comfortable in our sins, and that repentance is not needed. Nor have I advocated that convents are not important to maintain. (I am not saying you are saying that I said this, I just want this to be clear.)

First the fact is that I and you sin. We both agree on this point. We will continue to sin all of our lives. We will perhaps forsake some but we will pick up others as we go through this experience. That is the reality. What I advocated was that in spite of our sins the atonement save us. That is the miracle. The fact is that we have been justified by Christ. He has cleansed us of our sin, simply be accepting his grace. No work on your part or mine. For there is nothing that we could have done to merit it. We just ask and we receive. This is a gift-I.e not a prize or something you earn. Christ gives us this grace, and we are forgiven of our sin. All men will be justified.

I do not think that one who has accepted Christ in his life is comfortable in there sin.
However even though we experience sin and will continue does not mean that we are comfortable in it. However we still can have a relationship of faith in Christ in spite of all of this. I sin every day. I do my best to repent, but it is a struggle. But I still have a strong relationship with Christ, and I feel his atoning forgiveness in spite of all of this and know that I am sealed in the celestial kingdom.

Repentance is a relationship with God. It is also a relationship initiated by God. We do not initiate repentance God does. If you miss this point you missed the point of the gospels. It is God himself that came down to earth and initiated the relationship with fallen man by dieing on the cross. It is initiated John says by the comforter. The holy ghost is the one who initiates repentance, that is just one reason why he does not leave us. As the gospels say God does not abandon the sinner, so why would his spirit leave us? Repentance is essentially our experiences with God which transform our lives and move us away from sin. But that is a gradual thing for most of us most of the time, and it is a struggle, but it in no way puts our inheritance in doubt even while we still struggle with sin because we exercise faith in him. As Paul says, once we have that in our lives, and have accepted his grace we will want to improve, and forsake sin. Some days maybe more them others, but he is a forgiving God. It is only after we have this assurance and this freedom as Paul says we move on to improving our lives by forsaking sin. This is the process of sanctification. The point is that we are forgiven before we move on to becoming Christlike and doing good works. These things are a by product of his grace. We do not do good works, be obedient hoping to persuade God to accept us and to forgive us and tip the scales in our favor so that then he allows us in his kingdom. This is simply not the gospel.

I think that perhaps some of this confusion comes from our lack of understanding of justice. (That is what happens when you have a lot of lawyers as church leaders.)
The Hebrew word for justice is not what we modern people think as justice. Justice in Hebrew is a root of the word for Charity. It is hard to say what it means in English because we do not have that concept for justice.
But Justice means in a lot of ways charity, or giving to those who have nothing. So the Hebrew understanding of God's would be something like giving to those who have nothing, or have been robbed of everything. So God's justice would be to give you what you do not have. That is why Alma says that mercy cannot rob justice. Because it is through mercy that God will give justice I.e. give you what you do not have I.e holiness. Remember Alma was closer to being a Jew then an American so this is what he understood justice to be.
In the Hebrew justice is not that god will punish one who has sinned, or pay some cosmic restitution for the lack of virtue to the universe but simply give to those who do not have. God's justice is to restore you to a celestial status which is done through mercy. He will give to the poor what they do not have or been deprived of.

I am sorry for such a long post and getting of topic a bit, but I really enjoy talking about Hebrew and Greek. It is a love of mine.