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Mormons: Deeply Flawed, Deeply Spiritual? - Page 2

I have been pondering this so much in the past few months.

How flawed am I? How flawed was I when I first returned to church and was teaching Relief Society - even though I was still smoking cigarettes?

The bishop knew I was still smoking, but he told me that the Lord says to "use any tool" at his disposal. I know for a fact that the Spirit was with me during many of those lessons because people were touched by the Spirit and I felt the Spirit working through me.

It took me a year to finally quit smoking.

The conclusion, for me, is that we are *all* flawed in some way (even multiple ways, and often deeply), and yet the Lord works with us and through us to not only bless our own families but to bless those around us. Maybe we aren't receiving the "fulness" of that which we may otherwise be entitled to, but we are still receiving.

The Lord will bring about his purposes in His own way and in His own time.

I think JB nailed it when he said perhaps it's the receiver who has the great faith and who needs to have the mighty change of heart or a life-changing event and the Lord knows that... and will "use any tool" at His disposal. The "giver" of the blessing is simply a conduit, but there has to be something of Spirit and Light in that person, regardless of their flaws, to be able to recognize the promptings. Or again, perhaps it's the priesthood leader who needed to be called to repentance before giving a life-altering blessing to a faithful member. Who can tell the ways of the Lord?

In my opinion, the Lord is much more forgiving than we suspect. Who knows better than He what our weaknesses and flaws are? Who knows best how to make those weak things strong in us?

I think I need to be less judgmental and more forgiving and realize that the Lord knows what He is about. It's not up to me to decide or dictate who can and can't do a thing.

Spiritual Deeply Flawed Deeply Mormons

Farseer, are you saying (please correct me if I am wrong) that someone let's say is involved in pornography (you can add child pornography here if you wish), involve others on this act, it's dishonest but at the same time can have the Spirit of the Lord with him? It's really a yes or no answer.

Mormons: Deeply Flawed, Deeply Spiritual? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Yes, of course -- when it suits His purposes. God can do whatever it takes to bring about His kingdom. My first post in this thread I think is an example of that.

I don't think people involved in that sort of thing have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, obviously, but there are situations where the Lord needs to have a thing done (or maybe a thing *stopped*) and He -- in His own wisdom and for His own purposes -- will work ON or THROUGH someone even in extremely adverse situations.

Wasn't Saul converted by the Spirit of the Lord when he was going about killing the Saints?

Wasn't Alma converted by the Spirit of the Lord when he was going about destroying God's church?

How many other examples do we have of angels appearing or the voice of the Lord coming to those in the scriptures who were involved in horrible acts, and then who later went on to do great works for the Lord?

I think it's foolish for me to presume to know the mind and will of God in all situations, and I feel that He will accomplish his goals through any means at His disposal.

Page 2 Spiritual Deeply Flawed Deeply Mormons

Farseer, when I read this news here:

Former Bishop pleads guilty to molesting children

I thought immediately on this thread. We may have to agree to disagree on this one, but I don't see how a man in a position of authority who goes around sexually abusing little girls for YEARS can have the Spirit of the Lord with him and the Lord use him as a tool to "bless" the lives of others.

In my opinion, of course.

Spiritual Deeply Flawed Deeply Mormons

The article doesn't state whether he was bishop when the crimes occurred, only that he is a "former" bishop.

I'm not defending him or his horrible acts, but for him to have been a bishop, at some point he had to have had the Spirit -- even if it was only intermittently when the Lord had reason to use him to bless someone. Would the Lord truly allow the whole congregation to flounder and suffer and die spiritually? Literally hundreds of people to be cursed and denied blessings and progress because one man - the bishop - is a deviant? I don't agree with that.

Mormons: Deeply Flawed, Deeply Spiritual?

Well, they do... we have many Threads here about crimes committed by those in authority during their position. I have personally sat in on Councils where the person was in authority and committed horrible acts including rape - yep. Like I said in another Thread, let your focus be on Christ and not in man.

Mormons Deeply Flawed Deeply Spiritual - Page 2

I think we are all "deeply flawed" in one way or another. It is only through grace and mercy that we have any hope of salvation at all.

In response to the original question I have to ask who is the more spiritual, one who has lived an exemplary life and never strayed from the path or one who has at one time or another strayed yet through the grace of the Atonement found their way back?

In my experience it seems those who have never strayed have little tolerance for error. They are somewhat naive about the struggles one goes through in the refiners fire. They, in my experience, are the ones most likely to follow blindly without question. They are unwavering and obedient. We all have our trials, but some do not struggle with righteousness. Are they more blessed?

Those who have strayed may have committed some grievous sins. Yet through the process of repentance they have suffered and gained compassion for those who would follow in their footsteps. In the process of rebirth they may slip and have need to start the process again. They gain a deeper understanding of the Atonement along the way. It is often during our lowest moments that we draw nearest to the Lord. A deep appreciation for the Gospel is developed. Are they less blessed than the one who never strayed?

Was the prodigal son returned less spiritual than the good son who never wandered?

Who is more spiritual - he who was deeply flawed but has repented or he who never strayed?

Or is there a difference? I think of most of the latter day prophets, I do not recall any of them taking any major detours on their way to prophethood. I think Thomas S. Monson is arguably a very deeply spiritual person. While not perfect, I doubt he has ever committed any great sins.

A person who is deeply flawed, through the Atonement, can become just as deeply spiritual. I do not believe they can be deeply spiritual at the same time they are deeply enmeshed in sin. Some are very good at putting on the appearance of righteousness but I do not believe the Spirit would dwell with anyone while they were committing sin.

As Farseer pointed out, however, they can have moments of spirituality. Most sinners have an on going internal struggle. They attempt to do the right thing and repent. The repentance process is on going with its ups and downs. The Spirit will dwell with them as long as they are trying to do right. But when they slip back into their sinful ways the Spirit will leave post haste.

Edited: alskann on 25th Sep, 2008 - 5:44am

Mormons Deeply Flawed Deeply Spiritual Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

Is that part of the original question though? To me this started out based on FarSeer seeing someone acting in a spiritual capacity yet doing something that was not spiritual at the same time. What you seemed to be attacking is whether someone can repent and become just as clean or worthy as the one who may not have fallen on the same path.. seems to be two different things. However, to answer your question, it all depends on the sin or how far they fell, if you doubt... look at what the Lord said about King David because of his sin... despite his grievous repentance.

Strange that you would bring this up. There is a lot of assumptions here. Wasn't Saul a former killer of the Saints? He was redeemed through the blood of Christ and became whole as Paul. How can we judge what are 'great' sins? If you are a Prophet and entrusted with something and lose it even though you are warned you choose not to listen... is that a great sin? Or is that a 'small' sin?

Now back to the actual topic...

That is the key there... "can become", you have used the CORRECT words. The idea is that we ALL can become clean, what is key here is are we using it now in the process of carrying out our duties. Just because we can become clean does not mean we are clean. In FarSeer's example the person in authority may have realized that they wanted to become clean first, probably it was a wake up call... who knows.

I just think we must be warned of comparing sins, comparing righteousness, comparing grandeur of spirituality... the Lord has been quite clear about the following:

1. Only He know the heart as He sees not as man sees
2. Only He knows the judgments over our head
3. Vengeance is the Lord's
4. The Lord is no respecter of persons
5. Never trust in man only him, he did not put any exceptions to this as men do