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Day Of Atonement And The Mystery Of Azazel - Page 3

McKay--both of your responses in this thread have been not only sarcastic but demeaning. If you disagree, which is obvious, you should state why and be respected for your thoughts. The same should be for Amonhi.

For the record I would like to say that I don't think it is impossible for something like this to happen, seeing extra scriptures or whatever. I understand your reluctance to accept his ideas and if it DID happen to me I am not sure I would post it on this forum but rather the Mature Board for reasons that are apparent when reading replies through it.

If a vision can be opened up to someone to teach them by the Spirit why could not scriptures be added in vision or however the Lord chooses to do it. I do not even have a doubt that the prophet and his apostles have "increased understanding" of scriptures and by things we may think are uncommon. Is the problem lay in WHO is receiving it?

Azazel Mystery The Atonement Day

Excellent questions! I really appreciate your honest, intellegent and still polite and considerate posts. Thank you! I tried to answer these questions in "Loosing our Agency" just after your last post.

Notice, This is still not a complete picture of the atonement, and the role of the scapegoat, (Call it Azazel or anything else), is only half of the atonement picture.

Edited: Amonhi on 7th Oct, 2008 - 2:12pm

Day Of Atonement And The Mystery Of Azazel Studies Doctrine Mormon

thanks for your reply. I did post a little on the agency thread but in fear of hijacking that thread, I came back here. I understand you idea of Satan manipulating others agency. I have no problem with that. I feel their is some accountability towards that. However with azazel one put his own sins upon the goat. It is not a question of being innocent and one was framed and now justice is being served. It is clear that they are Israel's sins and scapegoating means to put ones guilt or sin onto another even thought you are guilty. I do not think that I can place my sin upon another. Article of faith says we are responsible for our own transgressions. Thus how can Satan then be punished for my actions, where agency is involved? are you suggesting that all of my sins are not do to my free agency? Then why have an age of accountability? Thus then are you saying that the atonement only saves those in ignorance or who do not have a advanced capacity of agency? I think 2Ne2 refutes this idea.
My other issue is the idea of punishment. Why does a punishment have to be carried out? You say that Jesus is not our "whipping boy" to which I agree, but why then is Satan? I personally think the scapegoat is satanic but not in the since that you see it. It is satanic in that Satan is the one who demands punishment and victims to keep his system running. Thus the demand for a scapegoat, which is a demand of punishment or violence for the benefit of others is the satanic concept. Devil in Greek means accuser. One who accuses man of sin.

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Sarcastic and demeaning? The truth taketh to be hard. If I see false doctrine then I speak my mind about it or is this site into covering up things while making someone's opinion look as if its doctrine? The Amonhi guy is using sources that are NOT, I repeat NOT considered scripture because they have not been translated correctly. What, maybe we should start using the catholic bible because we just pick up any old book that sounds religious and start using it to prove a theory?

Azazel Mystery The Atonement Day

It appears that Joseph has no problems with people expressing their views and perspectives of the gospel, even if he does not think that it is doctrine. Why do you?
When is doctrine voided of personal experiences and revelation?

How do you know that the book of Enoch is translated correctly? Do you read Aramaic and Hebrew? I do and I do not see anything in my reading that they are badly translated. In fact the NRSV is a much better bible translation then the LDS King James. It is "more correct" in its translation. I read different Bibles all the time, it is good for perspective. Perhaps you should try the Vulgate you may learn something.

Amonhi,

Thanks for the discussion I have enjoyed it. I like to hear other people's experiences and ideas. I am glad to hear that you do not take my questioning as rude or disrespectful. As for being a guardian, I mean I am a Mormon Girardian a student of Rene Girard and his ideas of atonement and human nature. It is very insightful. He is perhaps the brightest mind in the past 30 years about human nature. His understandings will open the bible and BOM for that matter in ways that you never saw. He is one of the few people who really show the religious and social problems we face today. His work is all about the scapegoat and the social implications of it on society and its relationship with Christ. He can be difficult to grasp but once you get it you will never see scripture the same again.

Anyway like I said I am not a penal substitution type of guy, which means I do not buy that Jesus was a substitute for punishment of my sins. That is a very outdated idea and you see more and more LDS authorities starting to move away for that language. There is a lot of LDS ideas on atonement that do not fit this idea. (Skousen's being on of them and perhaps one of the most popular ones. He did not believe that Jesus paid or was punished for our sins. I should know I was a friend of his and we talked atonement all the time. Although I always told him that he did not have it all, but looking back he was on the right tract in my opinion.)
I feel that punishment for sin is not God's punishment but rather our punishment that we put onto others. It is us who demands "justice" on the offender and project that onto God as righteousness. Thus when Christ dies on the cross not only did he feel the suffering caused of sin that mankind committed, but he also endured the punishment that we demand on the offender. It was in a since us that crucified Christ by demanding punishment from another for their offenses to us.

We are the demander of justice. Christ forgives, and when we accept his atonement we then are transformed and we stop demanding justice upon another for their offenses but rather forgive them, thus mercy overcomes justice.
Therefore the scapegoat is our demand for justice that we feel that needs to me full filled. Christ death exposed this cycle, because we see that God himself would rather suffer then to punish. We see in the crucification that God is not the punisher or the demander of justice, but rather mankind who put him on the cross to satisfy our self since of justice and violence.
That is how I look at the scapegoat. It is a system that society uses to control violence and maintain order. By placing the blame and our justice onto one offender and punishing him, order can be restored. Thus order is kept through organized violence. If you saw the new batman movie batman takes this role on in the end. Because he becomes "the dark knight" the symbol of Gotham's collective violence. The joker who symbolized the random chaos of Gotham was put away, and Gotham's hero Harvey dent was engulfed in the violence himself and it killed him. Thus to restore order and to hide the fact that Gotham could not know the truth about Harvey dent I.e. themselves, batman becomes the villain or the scapegoat in order to maintain order in the city. Thus all the violence of Gotham is directed at him as the cause of it all. Thus order is restored. This is the satanic order of violence that the world runs upon. Christ's atonement exposed this and Christians turn from it. It is the same story of the Greek tragedy of Oedipus. Anyway I will digress and stop here because it can get much much more complex and run into a longer tangent.

Message Edited... Persephone: Please use the Quote Tags here. When you do not use these tags source material that is not your own may appear to be yours when it is not. See our Constructive Posting Policy.

Day Of Atonement And The Mystery Of Azazel

Fantastic, It sounds like a "best book". I will have to get a copy!

YES! That is the other half of the atonement from my understanding. That is Christ's part. The softening of hearts, our hearts so that we will allow mercy. See my comment in the "loosing our Agency" thread!

I had to get my wife to read you comments about the atonement! Wonderful! Very very good! She says, "We wrote an article on the Atonement that was exactly like what you are saying here... But the thing is, we learned it 100% through the teachings of the spirit directly to us... We have NEVER heard of any one else who knows these things... We have even been afraid to share our feelings on this matter from the overwhelming negative response we expected it might stir up. If you'd like, we'd be willing to share it with you privately to see what you think and get more of your ideas and input??" - Miss Amonhi

Yes, this is why I said, "Christ did not suffer on behalf of our sins, but because of them."

Very insightful, thank you!

New information to me, much to ponder, please share more!

The Azazel/scapegoat concept may be entirely for the purpose of holding society together for those who demand Justice... and be in reality only an illusion which satisfies those who require justice until they are capable of receiving the atonement and change of heart. I need to ponder on how this new information may change my understanding of the scapegoat as an illusion or an instrument used to give society cohesion.

Day Atonement The Mystery Azazel - Page 3

Express your views fine with me but don't pass it off as though it is the word of God. If you want that to be your view then say that. I do have a problem when I see members get up in a Sunday class and start expounding all kinds of theories and myths and passing it off as though a pass prophet taught that.

I never said it was translated correctly.

Day Atonement The Mystery Azazel Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

I do not mean to be ignorant but can you explain exactly what a Mormon Guardian is? Is it a defender of the truth/church? And does being a student mean that you study this persons ideas? Sorry, if it sounds basic but I just want to get it clear in my head. Thanks!