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TheQuietMan, really? So how missionaries "look" - Page 4 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 21st Nov, 2008 - 11:26am
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Post Date: 20th Nov, 2008 - 1:25am / Post ID: #
Proposition and Mormons
It is interesting to me that everyone is talking about the aftermath of prop 8--but not there stance. Is it generally understood that you all supported it because you are members? I hate to be the lone wolf out here but I didn't support it and I am a member. Here is why:
1) Simply put, I don't think we need to be messing with the constitution
2) There are many things that I think are unethical, but that doesn't mean I would prevent someone else from doing them so long as it didn't hurt anybody else.
3) Rather than have a huge political fight I would like to see church leaders (from various religions, not just ours) meet with the gay community and get to the bottom of this together rather than against each other. Both sides have valid points...
4) It is hard for me to see so much money, time, and effort spent on the definition of a word when there are millions suffering in Darfur and the economy is in crisis. Let's talk about priorities.
Post Date: 20th Nov, 2008 - 2:09am / Post ID: #
Mormons & Proposition 8 Studies Doctrine Mormon
| QUOTE |
| 1) Simply put, I don't think we need to be messing with the constitution |
Could you explain your definition of the constitution and the relationship to prop 8, or the lack there of. People like to throw that around a lot but everyone has a different definition of it.
| QUOTE |
| Rather than have a huge political fight I would like to see church leaders (from various religions, not just ours) meet with the gay community and get to the bottom of this together rather than against each other. Both sides have valid points... |
And how do you think that meeting would go? Given the 2 various stances it would be a waste of time and probably cause more turmoil. Besides I don't believe that it is to the church's advantage to meet with these sorts of secret combinations at this time, but that is just my opinion.
Rather off topic, but...
Does any one remember that Iraq war? Do you remember them saying the same thing about the Iraqis? We are being given this "save the Darfur people". Do you know what this region has? The answer is oil and lots of it. We are trying to secure the world's oil production. The Sudan is selling it to China right now (Our enemy). We don't care about the people in Darfur. It is just an excuse to start a war in the region to secure resources. And the last thing we want to do right now is tick China off any more. And if we help the Darfur people it will ruin relations with china even more. |
Post Date: 20th Nov, 2008 - 3:16am / Post ID: #
Page 4 Proposition and Mormons
| QUOTE |
Could you explain your definition of the constitution and the relationship to prop 8, or the lack there of. People like to throw that around a lot but everyone has a different definition of it. |
To me, a constitution is a document outlying the fundamental principles of government. I do not believe it is appropriate to put prop 8 as an amendment because it doesn't address any principle for government--it just defines the word marriage. Save the definition for the dictionary. Even the prop 8 website Protect Marriage acknowledges that gays and lesbians have the same legal rights as those married. Prop 8 won't change that--it would just require that such associations not be called marriage.
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And how do you think that meeting would go? Given the 2 various stances it would be a waste of time and probably cause more turmoil. Besides I don't believe that it is to the church's advantage to meet with these sorts of secret combinations at this time, but that is just my opinion. |
How well the meeting went would depend on the civility of the people attending and their desire and willingness to resolve the issue instead of bicker and fight. It may take more time for them to be ready to do this. The gay community wants their relationships to have some validity and the Christian community wants to protect their children.
I understand one problem arose in a state that legalized gay marriage because a teacher read a book about a gay relationship (prince marrying prince, princess marrying princess) to a younger class. Because gay marriage was accepted, the parents had no say in this matter. I would agree that this is unacceptable. While at some point everyone will have to learn about this issue, it should not be taught to young children who haven't even gone through puberty (unless under special circumstances, such as a child in the class with same sex parents). I have a hard time believing that all of the gay community--especially those raising kids--would think it acceptable without parent oversight.
Rather off topic, but...
We never entered Iraq to help the people. When the claims that Iraq was harboring WMDs were unfounded and the war grew unfavorable one of the reasons for entering magically became that we were there to help those people out. As for caring about the people in Darfur--well, many people don't really care about the human suffering in the world that is so far removed from them. I do. It disgusts me to read about the most horrible dictators in the world that the United States takes no action against. At the very least they could refuse trade with them. |
Proposition and Mormons
Prop 8 changes only the constitution of the state of California - not the United States Constitution. Federal law has on the books the "Defense of Marriage Act" from 1996 :
Wikipedia
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| The Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA, is the short title of a federal law of the United States passed on September 21, 1996 as Public Law No. 104-199, 110 Stat. 2419. Its provisions are codified at 1 United StatesC. § 7 and 28 United StatesC. § 1738C. The law has two effects:  1. No state (or other political subdivision within the United States) need treat a relationship between persons of the same sex as a marriage, even if the relationship is considered a marriage in another state.  2. The Federal Government may not treat same-sex relationships as marriages for any purpose, even if concluded or recognized by one of the states. The bill was passed by Congress by a vote of 85-14 in the Senate[1] and a vote of 342-67 in the House of Representatives[2], and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996. At the time of passage, it was expected that at least one state would soon legalize same-sex marriage, whether by legislation or judicial interpretation of either the state or federal constitution. Opponents of such recognition feared (and many proponents hoped) that the other states would then be required to recognize such marriages under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the United States Constitution. |
Changing the US Constitution would take a 2/3 majority vote in Congress, and it has failed several times in the past 5 years to get past either the House or the Senate.
As far as my stance on this issue -- well, if it were ONLY the solemnization of vows between two people that was at stake, I might have had a difficult time deciding. However, this is not what it's about. It's about validating and legitimizing behavior which is contrary to the laws of God.
The GLBT lobby has an agenda to force "us" (everyone besides them) to accept/validate their behavior, and, since they can't change the minds of adults, they will start with kindergartners. It's a brilliant strategy, really, because if you teach children from the time they are small that something is not just "okay" but NORMAL and GOOD and ACCEPTABLE, they will believe it the rest of their lives. Especially if it comes from a trusted source, like a teacher whom they admire and look up to.
We, as parents, have the right to decide what our children will be taught in public school - not the GLBT. I will fight every step of the way any legislation, constitutional amendments, or court decisions which try to infringe upon my rights as a parent.
| Rather off topic, but... When my nephew asked for sponsorship in a bike ride for AIDS research, I was more than happy to contribute. What I didn't know was that my contribution went to support the L.A. Gay and Lesbian Center. I now get emails from the Center, and I can tell you, this is the smuttiest filth I've ever seen. And all it is is a newsletter and activity calendar for the GLBT community. I'd be happy to forward one to you so you can understand my position a little clearer. I will not have this forced on young children. |
Edited: FarSeer on 20th Nov, 2008 - 6:18amMormons & Proposition 8
Another email making the rounds (sorry no link)
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| Subject: Thank you Mormons . . . Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:21:03 +0000 What A Long Strange Trip It's Been Posted by: John Schroeder at 07:09 am, November 6th 2008 Proposition 8 is now a part of the California constitution! That is probably the best news from an otherwise difficult election for conservatives and Republicans. In very large part, we Evangelicals must thank our Mormon cousins for that fact. They, along with our Catholic brethren, were better organized than us and that provided a base from which we could ALL work together to get this job done. What more, as we have chronicled here, Mormons took the brunt of the abuse, derision, and even threats of physical harm that came with this effort. And like us, they have given thanks to the Almighty that is ultimately in control, even if their understanding of that Almighty is a bit diffrent than ours. I cannot help but wonder how much more thankful we ALL might be today if we had been more willing to embrace these religious cousins a few months ago - but alas, politics is always about governing today and looking forward to the next election. Said John Mark Reynolds: In the battle for the family, however, traditional Christians have no better friends than the Mormon faithful. It would be wrong if that support were taken for granted. We are intolerant of the false attacks on Mormon faith and family. We stand with our Mormon friends in their right to express their views on the public square. We celebrate the areas, such as family values, where we agree. A heart felt thank you may not win points from other friends who demand one hundred percent agreement from their allies, but it is the decent and proper thing to do. Thank you to our Mormon friends and allies! Hard to do better than that. The "Ruth Youth" ministry proclaimed yesterday "International Mormon Appreciation Day." Very appropriate, yet still inadequate. In addition to our thanks, Mormons deserve our protection. They have been oppressed in ways during the Prop 8 campaign that this nation has not seen since the 1960's and the civil rights movement. The rhetoric has been deplorable, but moreover. we have seen instances of vandalism, property destruction, and some leaders in the fight currently find themselves with armed protection because of the threats made against them and their families. Our nation will not and cannot tolerate this sort of behavior - it is incumbent on all of us to stand against it, and the best way to do that is to stand between the Mormons and the forces that would perpetrate such evil. Now I am sure the Mormons can, and probably want, to take care of themselves, but as a Christian, it is my duty to protect the innocent and free the oppressed. To turn a blind eye in this circumstance is not only ungracious, it is simply unChristian. Make all the theological distinctions you want, but in the political arena we are yoked with the Mormons (he said borrowing some religious imagery) and it is darn well time we started acting like it. Absolutely, positively thank the Mormons - but don't stop there. Stand up and be counted against the evil that has been perpetrated towards them in this campaign. As Christians we can do no less. |
TOPIC: Mormons & Proposition 8