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Switch Glories Judgement - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 12th Dec, 2008 - 2:36am
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Switch Glories After Judgement
When we are judged and given a glory will we really be in that glory forever and ever or is there a chance that after a thousand years of working at it you could move up to another glory if you were in the terrestial for example.
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Judgement Glories Switch
Bruce R. Mckonkie, Spencer W. Kimball, and Joseph Fielding Smith all taught that there was not advancement to another Kingdom after we have been assigned to our Kingdom after the Final Judgment.
But there is an interim time between death in the spirit world and the final judgment and resurrection where we may have the opportunity to improve ourselves. It is harder, however, to receive remission of our sins and to overcome the world after we die then in this mortal life.
Now is the time to prepare to meet God.
Judgement Glories Switch
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| Bruce R. Mckonkie, Spencer W. Kimball, and Joseph Fielding Smith all taught that there was not advancement to another Kingdom after we have been assigned to our Kingdom after the Final Judgment. |
Yes but Talmage,(1st. ed. of articles of faith) Witsoe, and others have speculated that there may be progression after judgment. So the official answer is we do not know. Personally I do not like McConkie's ideas very much, so I kind of fall under Talmage's ideas here. And I kind of lean to yes there is progression after judgment, but you guess is as good as mine.
Judgement Glories Switch
Here you go Isiah53, Support for your belief. in the next two quotes
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The Articles of Faith, by James E. Talmage; 1st Edition, pp. 420-421, 1899. It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God's plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God's living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase. |
and
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We are told in section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants that there are different degrees of glory in the great hereafter. This is indeed simply an emphatic statement of the fact that the judgment passed upon man will be graduated according to the works of man. We do not know much about conditions in the hereafter; but the spirit of revelation known as Section 76, is very clear to all who care to understand. A man shall be judged according to his life; and his place in the hereafter will depend on what he has earned for himself. . . . After reading Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants, it seems that hell is to find ourselves in an inferior position and conditions, and to know that we might have been, by our efforts, in a higher and more glorious place, had we exercised our free agency more vigorously for better things. Moreover our punishment stands, at least measurably, throughout the endless ages, because as we go onward, those above us go onward also, and the relative positions remain the same. This is the just but fearful punishment of evil doing. Temple work in its various departments assumes this principle of eternal justice. The Gospel, however, fills human hearts with joy, for it teaches that even in he lowest glory described in Section 76 [v. 89], the place reserved for those who have made the greatest mistakes, who have failed to get beyond the first step, is so glorious as to be beyond the conception of mortal man. John A. Widtsoe, "Fundamentals of Temple Doctrine," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, 13 (1922): 132. |
On the other side
From Bruce R Mckonkie
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Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were. This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually. The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies--some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared. |
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"No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 50) |
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Smith, Joseph Fielding. Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2. Ed. Bruce R. McConkie. (Salt Lake City, Utah: 1954-1956), pp. 31. NO PROGRESSION FROM KINGDOM TO KINGDOM NO ADVANCEMENT FROM LOWER TO HIGHER. It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." D&C (76:112) Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights. This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory. |
So you are right Isiah53, it is one of those things that we do not know now,
But I lean toward the theory of advancement within Kingdoms, but no jumping to a higher Kingdom.
| Rather off topic, but... I believe our attraction to certain apostles teachings have alot to do with our personalities and perspectives on life. I am a big big big fan of the teachings of Bruce R. Mckonkie, so I of course am going to lean that way. Talmage's writings were pretty good too. I am sure that there heads would have butt a few times if they had been contemporaries. At least they both had an undying love and admiration for the Savior. |
Switch Glories After Judgement
dbackers,
Thanks for posting those quotes. I have a copy of them in my library but not a digital copy. As we've stated there is a vast opinion on these ideas.
| Rather off topic, but... You are correct. I am not a McConkie fan at all. He was a good apostle,and his last conference talk was great, but his doctrine in my opinion was less to be desired. But that is my preference. However, I am glad that he had a different opinion to share, I sometimes wish it was not so baring on those who did not share his view. Interesting note is that I heard that the new lesson manuals and CSS manuals that are being developed were told not to quote him. Take that for what it it worth. Yes I tend to lean more to a Widsoe perspective on things, but I would say I hold him to a high authority on issues. Sometimes I find myself leaning to a Widsoe idea of progression and other times I think McConkie idea that god does not progress has some merit. |
 Message Edited...JB: You cannot mix the offtopic and quote tags, it does not work that way. |
Switch Glories Judgement
In the end it comes down to the Judgment of God. (And really is God's judgment the FINAL judgment?)
If one Can progress, that would mean that God just didn't give them enough time to change, to repent. That God's judgment of me was pre-mature, if I just would have had a couple more years, (or decades) eventually I would have made it to a higher kingdom. If I believe that God's judgment isn't final and real, then I have no faith in any of God's judgment or even to some point any of God's decisions. What is it say that given enough time I can't figure out a better way to save the human race from the fall. I mean God was wrong in his judgment of me? It also means that God's knowledge is limited, that God really doesn't know the end from the beginning. Don't we all believe right now that God knows which kingdom of glory we are going to end up in? He knows what choices we are going to make! If God didn't know this, we never would pray to him for help in our choices in the first place.
That also enters the question, if I can progress, doesn't that mean I regress. That means after I have gotten Celestial Glory (by the Judgment of God) I can then fall to a lower kingdom of Glory? If that is the case, then what is the point of even having three kingdoms? Why not just have one kingdom all together?
The one part I guess that Talmage is missing from Section 76 is what Joseph Fielding Smith says. "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." D&C (76:112)" For those in the lowest kingdom there really isn't any other doctrine in the LDS church that goes around this scripture. So at least in the case of those in the telestial Kingdom, the question of progression is answered. I feel the same is true for the other kingdoms, but because we don't have a revelation on it, people are free to speculate.
Melvin J, Ballard put it this way.
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The question is often asked, "Is it possible for one who attains telestial glory in time in the eternal world to live so well that he may graduate from the telestial and pass into the terrestrial, and then after a season that he may progress from that and be ultimately worthy of the celestial glory?" That is the query that has been asked. I have just read the answer, so far as the telestial group is concerned. "Where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." I take it upon the same basis, the same argument likewise applies to the terrestrial world. Those whose lives have entitled them to terrestrial glory can never gain celestial glory. One who gains possession of the lowest degree of the telestial glory may ultimately arise to the highest degree of that glory, but no provision has been made for promotion from one glory to another. Let us be reasonable about it. I wish to say in illustrating the subject that if three men were starting out on an endless race, one having an advantage of one mile, the other of two miles, and each one could run as fast as the other, when would the last ever catch up to the first? If you can tell me that, I can tell you when candidates for the telestial glory will get into the celestial glory. Each will grow, but his development will be prescribed by his environment, and there is a reason for it. Applying this illustration to those who are entitled to the different degrees of glory: He who enters the celestial glory has the advantage over all others. He dwells in the presence of the Father and the Son. His teachers are the highest. The others will receive all they learn from the celestial to the terrestrial, from the terrestrial to the telestial. They get it second hand and third hand, and how can they ever hope to grow as fast as those who drink from the fountainhead? Again those who come forth in the celestial glory with celestial bodies have a body that is more refined. It is different. The very fibre and texture of the celestial body is more pure and holy than a telestial or terrestrial body, and a celestial body alone can endure celestial glory. I am impressed with this because I recall when a child at school I learned that if an icicle a mile square were dropped into the sun it would melt in an instant, and when I learned how intense the heat of that orb is and that our sun is a celestial world, I did not know whether I wanted to live in a celestial world or not if it was that hot. But when I come to understand, if I have a body suitable to dwell in eternal burnings, then I think I would like it. Fish can live in the water and have bodies suited to that element but entirely unsuitable to a life outside of the water. When we have a celestial body, it will be suited to the celestial conditions, and a telestial body could not endure celestial glory. It would be torment and affliction to them. I have not read in the scripture where there will be another resurrection where we can obtain a celestial body for a terrestrial body. What we receive in the resurrection will be ours forever and forever. (Bryant S. Hinckley, Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1949], 256.) |
Really meaning if there was such a thing as progression from the lower to the higher, then the Higher kingdom would also be able to progress. And because the Higher kingdom has more light and knowledge, they would be able to progress faster then those in the lower. So in the end, the lower kingdoms would never be able to catch up to be at the same "level" as the higher kingdom.
Switch Glories Judgement Mormon Doctrine Studies
WHat is "final" in eternal terms? A lot of people think that death is final, but there is a lot more, there is still progression. I think our understanding is not capable of understanding the full meaning of finality.
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