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Isiah53 said: QUOTE We really do not know - Page 3 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 29th Dec, 2009 - 8:31am
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Post Date: 22nd Dec, 2008 - 3:50am / Post ID: #
Switch Glories After Judgement - Page 3
That is a very good point. I guess what's important, regardless to the answer of the increase, is that the nature of our spirits are eternal, so I would think for the most part we would be content where we're at.
I think a good message to remember in all of this is in 1 Nephi 11:16-17, Nephi's answer "I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things" is pretty powerful. Regardless what happens on Judgement day, God loves his children and though we may not understand his decisions, we do know it is out of love for us.
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Judgement Glories Switch
That is the fun in discussing the mysteries, we do not know all the answers but then what fun would it be if we did? I believe our current perspective of things is very limited because we are limited. Perhaps when the veil is taken from us we can understand enternal judgement better. I have the feeling though that the finality of judgement as we see it is not the same as Heavenly Father sees it especially because he loves us.
Switch Glories After Judgement Studies Doctrine Mormon
Sorry had this written yesterday, but I can only post once every 24 hours, (which is dumb)
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Because judgment is more then declaring guilty handing out rewards and punishment. Judgment also is used to help us know where we are with God so that we can move and progress. Why cannot judgment be a means to an end, instead of a end to a means. |
There are times when this use of the word judgment is probably used. But that isn't the version of the word I"m using. I"m using this one from Lectures on Faith
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14. It is also of equal importance that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute judgment in God, so they may exercise faith in him for life and salvation. For without the idea of the existence of this attribute in the Deity, it would be impossible for men to exercise faith in him for life and salvation, seeing that it is through the exercise of this attribute that the faithful in Christ Jesus are delivered out of the hands of those who seek their destruction. For if God were not to come out in swift judgment against the workers of iniquity and the powers of darkness, his saints could not be saved; for it is by judgment that the Lord delivers his saints out of the hands of all their enemies and those who reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. But no sooner is the idea of the existence of this attribute planted in the minds of men than it gives power to their minds for the exercise of faith and confidence in God. They are thus enabled by faith to lay hold on the promises which are set before them and to wade through all the tribulations and afflictions to which they are subjected by reason of the persecution from those who know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. They believe that in due time the Lord will come out in swift judgment against their enemies, who shall be cut off from before him, and that in his own due time he will bear them off conquerors, and more than conquerors, in all things. (Larry E. Dahl and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., The Lectures on Faith in Historical Perspective [Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1990], 78 - 79.) |
To have proper Faith in God, we have to believe that Keep the commandments helps us avoid the "harsh" judgment of God. We also believe that those that fight against God (Reject Christ and his Atonement) well at one day suffer for those sins they have committed. There has to be a time when that punishment is enforced.
If you do the crime you have to do the time. If, the punishment can be overcome, then it really isn't a punishment. The law that was broken has still been violated. If we go down this road, then things start to unravel.
For example, War in Heaven. Those that picked Lucifer's side are going to get that punishment. No matter how long I wait, no matter what happens, that is there punishment, they can't progress no matter what. God's word is final on that matter.
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In order you to know that there is a final judgment you would have to say that you know the absolute mind of God |
Actually, its call the scriptures, they teach of the Plan of Salvation. You can start a thread about the Final Judgment if you want, but lets go with Elder Oak's definition.
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First, I speak of the final judgment. This is that future occasion in which all of us will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to our works (see 1 Ne. 15:33; 3 Ne. 27:15; Morm. 3:20; D&C 19:3). Some Christians look on this as the time when individuals are assigned to heaven or hell. With the increased understanding we have received from the Restoration, Latter-day Saints understand the final judgment as the time when all mankind will receive their personal dominions in the mansions prepared for them in the various kingdoms of glory (From a talk given on 1 March 1998 at Brigham Young University.) |
If you don't like his use of the word Final Judgment, I suggest you take it up with him.
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But again you are limiting God to your expereince and perspective of a pre-existence and mortal existence. How can you close off things we do not know? |
Not sure what you mean by this? So further explained would be needed. I don't want cut God short.
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Where does the atonement come into this idea of progression? It seems that it is all about what I can do. I am not sure what you mean by just judgment. I do not think we see eye to eye on what this is. That may be a crucial difference in this discussion. |
Could be. But what I guess I could have been trying to say. God knows who is going to keep the commandments, follow Christ, and so forth. On our side, we have our agency to grow spiritually. In the end did I make the choice to Follow Christ, to Pass the test of mortal life?
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I am confused you seem to say that God knows exactly how much time we need on this earth, then you state that he may at times extend that time to work out there salvation. This seems to contradict. Please explain. Thanks, |
I would be happy to.
We know the Little Children that die before the age of accountably received the Celestial Glory. For what ever reason, that is all the 'time" they needed.
Others live a mortal life, are sick and healed, for what ever reason God choose to allow that person to stay on the earth longer. It COULD be because they still need to work on things, it could not. It could just be they need to help somebody else. We don't know. What we do know is that its not a matter of TIME, but what we do with that time.
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Again Alma is talking about the end. |
Okay we agree on that.
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But that is the end of this life. |
Yes, so far so good.
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Sure there is a judgment but again you are putting ideas in this scripture, because he does not say anything about a final judgment, but an end to this life, where upon labors cannot be performed. |
Maybe you are confusing yourself even.
So there is a Judgment where after this judgment no labors can be performed? Correct?
So how can one progress when there is no more chance to perform our "labor"? That is done in this life, not the next.
Edited: tubaloth on 23rd Dec, 2008 - 6:29amPost Date: 29th Dec, 2009 - 8:31am / Post ID: #
Page 3 Judgement Glories Switch
Isiah53 said:
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| We really do not know what the scriptures call "final judgment" (And I am not too certain if that term is scriptural) |
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| In the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord speaks of the "last great day of judgment" (D&C 19:3), which has reference to that final judging before the "judgement-seat of Christ" (D&C 135:5). This will occur at the end of the Millennium. -- Doctrine and Covenants Encyclopedia (H. Brewster), J., Judgment. |
Okay, so it doesn't say, "final judgment." "Last great day of judgment" will have to do.
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| Resurrection and Final Judgement. When the spirit leaves the body, it returns, says the prophet, immediately to God, to be assigned to its Place,... Therefore we know that Brother Clayton has gone to God, gone to receive the partial judgment of the Almighty which pertains to the period intervening between the death of the body and the resurrection of the body, or the separation of the spirit from the body and their uniting together again. This judgment is passed upon the spirit alone. But there will come a time which will be after the resurrection, when the body and spirit shall be reunited, when the final judgment will be passed on every man. This is in accordance with the vision of John the Revelator: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: * * * and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:12-15) That is the final judgment, which we will all receive after we have performed this our earthly mission. --Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, Eternal Life and Salvation. |
Joseph F. Smith was pretty clear on it.
TOPIC: Switch Glories After Judgement