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Switch Glories After Judgement - Page 2

I am not sure how progression between kingdoms makes God judgments not real? Are we all been judged at some point in out lives by God only to grow from that judgment and to change for the better? Why would that not still be the case, and how will that not make God's judgments any less real or lasting? I am not sure how God's foreknowledge has anything to do with progression in our eternities?

In this logic then why does God give us so much time as he does? If he knows what we will do then why give us the 70-80 years that he does? Why not shorten our mortal existence and give us our rewards? Also if God knows that another 10 years or mortal life can make me a better person, then does he not have a moral obligation to extend that life? Perhaps life means more then giving us time to become better people.

Judgement Glories Switch

Because no matter what Judgment God places upon me, it wouldn't be a "final" say, if I could still progress. So then what is use of even having a judgment?

There are times when we are given the chance to be accountable for our actions. But because they happen during this life, we have the chance to change repent and move on. God does have stages of Judgment, one when we die, if we go to paradise or spirit prison. But again this all are leading up to the FINAL judgment. That's why its called a Final Judgment, there is no other judgment after that.

Because as the Plan of Salvation is taught, there is a final Judgment. If God's decision at this Final Judgment really has no power, or doesn't come into effect, then God really has no Final Say in anything. What God declares as to which kingdom I would inherit, is not true at all!
So why does he even make (or can he) have a final say in anything?

For us to prove to ourselves that we can live/keep Gods commandments. That we actually can pass the test of this life. God knows where are heart is, he knows the right and wrong choices well have. But it up to us to work out our own salvation, so that in the end, when we are judged we well know that God's judgment is just. That based off of our choices this is where we ended up.

See above answer. But really its so that we can progress to that point to where God knows what we can become. God knows that the plan of salvation is perfect for each to progress to there full potential. He also knows that if we can't accomplish that through two estates (Spiritual and physical) then we aren't going to accomplish it no matter how much time he gives us.

Because the exact same argument would come up again. That God didn't give us enough time to prove ourselves.

Who is to say he doesn't do this in some cases? But that isn't the test of mortal life. Lets go back to a quote by Elder McConkie.

So the test of this mortal life is if I"m giving 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, that I can prove myself in keep the commandments of God. Now if I can't do that in 20 years, but could have done that in 30 years, that would come forth in the next life (in spirit world) but the way we are thinking here is that even after that still isn't enough of a chance ? I think it is.

There is an end! There is a final Judgment! There is a "night of darkness" where we can't change any more, we have received our kingdom of glory and that is the end.

Edited: tubaloth on 15th Dec, 2008 - 12:35am

Switch Glories After Judgement Studies Doctrine Mormon

Tubaloth quoted Melvin J. Ballard:

I have a problem with the example of three men in a race, for it is assumed that all run the same. However,

Here the Lord compares the heavenly bodies; the earth, moon, sun, planets and stars; to us, the spirits, showing that there are many grades and degrees. I think it is just too simple to assume that all in any particular degree of glory, all "run (exactly) as fast as the other."

There are advantages to the different degrees of glory, which those of the lesser degrees cannot begin to enjoy. Just as the priesthood gave Moses the distinct advantage over the Egyptian magicians, so those in the higher degree will have an advantage completely beyond those beneath them, for the Telestial Kingdom is governed by the Holy Ghost, the Terrestrial Kingdom by Christ, and, of course, the Celestial Kingdom by God the Father (as we speak).

So what kind of helps are we talking about? Let us list some of the advantages for those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom:

1- The globe on which they reside is a great Urim and Thummim manifesting all things past, present, and future are manifested for their glory. Thus, all truth is made available to them.-D&C 130:7-8.

2- This globe also reveals all things pertaining to all kingdoms below it. Since the globe is Celestial, it makes the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms open books for the Exalted.

3- The Exalted (inhabitants of the Celestial Kingdom) also receive a white stone which reveals things (not all things?) pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms. -D&C 130:10.

4- The white stone contains "a new name" which is 'the key word."- Vs.11

How does one obtain these advantages? One earns the Celestial Kingdom. How does one do this? One receives the necessary ordinances. When must one do this? In this life, or vicariously through work for the dead. You simply can't be baptized after you"re resurrected. Without that, no Celestial Kingdom.

Otherwise, the wicked are right when they say:

If we progress from Kingdom to kingdom at any time, reincarnation is true.

Page 2 Judgement Glories Switch

I don't think its a matter of them being governed as much as the people in those glories are ministered by them so the people in the Telestial glory are governed by the Holy Ghost, etc.

Judgement Glories Switch

Because judgment is more then declaring guilty handing out rewards and punishment. Judgment also is used to help us know where we are with God so that we can move and progress. Why cannot judgment be a means to an end, instead of a end to a means.

This is a poor assumption. In order you to know that there is a final judgment you would have to say that you know the absolute mind of God, and the absolute end of eternity. Which I am sure none of us do. Therefore logically you cannot say that for certain that there is an absolute final judgment. We really do not know what the scriptures call "final judgment" (And I am not too certain if that term is scriptural) really is or how final it really is. Remember D&C 19 calls eternal punishment God's punishment not necessary that it lasts forever or eternally. Thus from this idea we can say we may want to reserve any ideas of final judgment. For if God's punishment ends at some point then is that not a form of progression?

But again you are limiting God to your expereince and perspective of a pre-existence and mortal existence. How can you close off things we do not know?

This has some problems theologically with this statement but this is not the place to get into this. But sounds like a form of a Calvenistic ideas.Where does the atonement come into this idea of progression? It seems that it is all about what I can do. I am not sure what you mean by just judgment. I do not think we see eye to eye on what this is. That may be a crucial difference in this discussion.

I am confused you seem to say that God knows exactly how much time we need on this earth, then you state that he may at times extend that time to work out there salvation. This seems to contradict. Please explain. Thanks,

Again Alma is talking about the end. But that is the end of this life. That is nothing to say about a final judgment. Sure there is a judgment but again you are putting ideas in this scripture, because he does not say anything about a final judgment, but an end to this life, where upon labors cannot be performed. I.e mortal labors or preparation to meet God in a judgment, but no language says it is an absolute final judgment.

I am not sure why you are quoting McConkie's BYU talk. ( which I personally do not think hold much water.) I do not see anything that says no progression, although he did believe that.

Switch Glories After Judgement

I think you might have missed the part about how they are all running a race, but some start farther a head then others.

Really I think you agree with what Elder Ballard is teaching, mostly for the reasons you sited. Those in the Celestial Kingdom have so many more "blessings" or more light and knowledge that how can any of those in the lower kingdom every catch up to them.

They can't. And those in the telestial and Terriestial Kingdom can never really "win" the race.

Switch Glories Judgement - Page 2

I would just like to add my current opinion on the matter, but I will not be doing any amount of research on the matter previous.

In my opinion, I believe that ever individual spirit is unique and has a specific nature. We lived with our Father previous to this life for an unknown amount of time (perhaps eons of years) and during this time it was pretty obvious who was who.

In this life for example there are people that tend to be more motivated than others, some people seem to be 'more righteous' and more obedient naturally. I would like to contend that some spirits are naturally more obedient than others.

Do not get caught up in the idea that in this worldly exam we all have to get an 'A' or all is lost, some of us are 'C' or 'B' students. In my opinion, we all receive the Kingdom we are most comfortable in and would be happiest in according to our nature. Would someone placed in the Telestial Kingdom feel comfortable in the Celestial Kingdom to be surrounded by those valiant few? It'd be similar to going to a party where everyone was dressed up in there best tux eating fancy finger foods, when yourself were raised in a very rural area and you were more accustomed to a dance held in a barn where you attended in jeans. It just would not be comfortable.

If these principles are true, then one must wonder would anyone want to advance in Kingdom. We do know that at the Judgement there wont be arguing for we will know that the decisions are just and perfect. It is also best to remember that Christ is perfectly loving of his children, and as a mediator for us, I can't imagine that we'd be put in a Kingdom we weren't going to best suited for.

Anyways I hope this helps.

Switch Glories Judgement Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

Good example bclarke but I would add that although at first you might not like to be around the people in the party you may want to eventually. That is the main thing behind this I guess, will we just be in one place all the time becaue we are eternally damnded which refers to no more progression or is it because we just don't want to improve?