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Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed - Page 3

You do not have to accept it, but you then have a problem with the morality of God. A problem I do not see a way out of logically at this time.

I agree. It is not about time. Time is subjective. The feeling of time changes even as we get older. A year of my life is a lot shorter then it was 25 years ago. But nevertheless it is suffering, and even if it seems a second to God it still feels like a lifetime to the one who suffers. I think we do a disservice to those who are abused to brush there pain as a quick moment in there existence. I do not think Christ does that.

As I said before I have more questions then answers about this idea. I have not heard anything to answer those questions about God's role or lack of role in allowing suffering.

Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

And one has to wonder why that is... Not for you personally but in general especially considering the amount of Suffering there is on the planet. I think we in the Western World, especially those of blessed with a little more that we think is 'normal' really isn't. I would think that besides the suffering of Christ, the story of Job and a couple of other references there would be a little more on the purpose of such lengthy suffering for little ones who are indeed innocent of their environment.

Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed Studies Doctrine Mormon

This indeed is a hot topic. I must say here that suffering-in any degree or amount, or for any length of time-is just as absolutely essential to God's plan as are happiness and enjoyment. And we are simply not spiritually equipped to understand where the line should be drawn in individual cases.

As ugly as it is, especially when perpetrated against the completely innocent, suffering is crucial to our mortal experience. Remember what Lehi said to his son Jacob? He said that there must be opposition (which includes the prolonged suffering of the innocent) in our mortal experience. In fact, he points out that such opposition is so absolutely necessary that without it, there would be "no purpose in the end of [our] creation." 2 Ne. 2:12. Then he goes on to say that "this thing [(the removing of opposition)] must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes." (ibid) And of course we know that those purposes are to bring about our immortality and our eternal life.

Lehi finishes, in punctuation of this point to Jacob, by saying that the removal of opposition would lead to the destruction of God, and "all things must have vanished away." 2 Ne. 2:13

How many faithful members of the Church have actually forsaken their covenants and forfeited (potentially) their exaltation by turning against God because of the suffering of the innocent? What price is too high to pay for exaltation? And believe me, I am in no way minimizing the suffering of others in these questions. I am no stranger to prolonged childhood suffering. These are very real questions, and ones we will each be called upon to answer for ourselves. What does it truly mean to be "valiant in the testimony of Jesus"?

I believe it means (in part) to love God, praise him, serve him, and remain faithful to him when our suffering, or the suffering of others, seems altogether pointless. No one suffered more unfairly than the Savior. He was just as childlike as an adult as children are in childhood. And no suffering we will endure will be any less necessary, or any less exalting, than His suffering was, provided we endure it well. And that includes our individual suffering for the suffering of the innocent.

We have such a limited view of eternity. We have absolutely no first-hand knowledge of how utterly amazing our ultimate reward for valiance will be. Maybe if we did, we'd willingly suffer the most horrendous thing that Satan could pursuade his followers to inflict upon us. Who knows? I don't. But I do know one thing-there's only one way to find out. Endure (well) to the end.

Page 3 Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

I think Lehi said that there is opposition "IN all things." Not "TO all things." This is a difference. Meaning that we all have opposition in our selves. I do not think he is talking about a physical duality to all things. ( I am not saying that this is not the case, but Lehi is not saying that.)

Clearly there has to be something to suffering. But I do not know what it is, and I do not claim to know either.

To say that someone has forfeited their exaltation is to say that you understand suffering. I do not know if I can make that bold of an accusation. First I am not sure if there is a price for salvation, meaning that I must pay something for it. To me that negates an atonement. I do not buy the idea of a form of payment to gain exultation.

I am not sure if I ever heard well put into enduring. Is that scriptural? I am not sure I agree that my enduring is qualified. I am not sure how one is to endure well.

Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

I quoted Lehi correctly. I have not interpreted his teachings to mean anything other that exactly what he said. Suffering is the opposition in a world also full of contentment. It is necessary as a part of God's plan, in any degree or for any duration.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you're saying that we cannot judge the suffering of others in an eternal light, I would agree. I imagine, however, that there will be those who lose their exaltation (please don't confuse this with salvation) because they have forsaken the Lord and ultimately abandoned their covenants with Him. That statement is not an accusation of anyone. It is simply the truth.

Well, yes, there is. The gift of salvation is truly that-a gift. It is something that we could not give ourselves. But it does come with one condition-the submitting of our will to Heavenly Father's by accepting his Plan with Christ as its executor, which we all had to do to receive a mortal body (which, consequently, is prerequisite to receiving salvation). So, in a way, we have paid a price for that gift. Those who were not willing to pay the price-those who did not accept Heavenly Father's plan-will never receive the gift of salvation.

I think you may be confusing salvation with exaltation. But in both cases, the requirement (or price) is the same-willful submission to God. One was paid during our first estate, the other during our second. Of course, our submission to God is pointless without Christ's atonement. That is, indeed, the ultimate price that had to be paid so that the blessings promised to the obedient can be received.

It is certainly implied that we cannot just merely endure suffering, but must do with with faith and love for God. The wicked endure suffering right along with the righteous, but they curse God all the while, while the righteous thank Him for their eventual deliverance from it.

This is a great quote from a great talk on the subject, by Henry B. Eyring:

In that same paragraph he continues:

In D&C 121, the Lord also uses the phrase to comfort Joseph Smith.

Edited: TheQuietMan on 24th Mar, 2009 - 1:16am

Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed

All those are "nice" words by Elder Henry B. Eyring but you all are forgetting that we are talking about children, NOT adults who may have the ability to endure, rationalize, analyze, etc this type of suffering. We are speaking about a newborn, a toddler who as soon as they were born they have been subjected to rape and torture and when growing up they do not know ANYTHING ELSE but being sexually assaulted on a daily basis, physically starved and emotionally abused....until their deaths.

That's what we are talking about here folks.

Mormons - Children Raped Abused & Killed - Page 3

I do not know why children must suffer.

Right now that's all I've got.

Is it wrong of me to claim ignorance in this instance?

Mormons - Children Raped Abused & Killed Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

I can honestly say I have no idea why specific children are called upon to suffer specific things. Who but God can say? I do understand, however, that there is purpose in their suffering, however incomprehensible to us that may be.

Edited: TheQuietMan on 1st Apr, 2009 - 7:34am