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Re-establishment Of Israel Through Holocaust

Re-Establishment of Israel Through Holocaust

Do you think it was necessary to have the Holocaust as a means for God to re-establish His old covenant people into one literal place? If the Holocaust had not happened do you think the world (more so certain influential countries) would have been willing to form Israel?

Holocaust Israel Re-establishment

No I do not believe that. I do not think that God creates wickedness in order to push his agenda forward. That would be immoral. I think that God may create redemption out of sin, in other words that God was able to create something positive out of such tragedy, but to say that God orchestrated such terrible events has problems.

Re-establishment Of Israel Through Holocaust Studies Doctrine Mormon

I think you are overshooting the subject matter of this Thread. This Thread is not about:

I never said he did, I am merely stating that if the holocaust did not happen would there be physical Israel today?

Or...

Would some sort of holocaust be necessary for certain countries to feel the empathy for the Jews to create it?

Thus brings up the thoughts:

1. Was Israel formed because of prophecy? Or because men wanted to 'force' that prophecy ahead?

2. If the holocaust did not happen where would the Jews be today?

3. Why did not anyone 'help' the Jews have a physical land before the holocaust?

Holocaust Israel Re-establishment

I do not know if we can answer this, since we do not know what would happen if there was no holocaust. I personally suspect that modern Israel is not the Israel that is prophesied. In fact I know this is a hot topic even among Jews when in fact most of the world's Jewish population is not Israeli, meaning a citizen or a resident of modern Israel. So one has to wonder if this is the Israel that the prophets had seen. So I guess even with the holocaust most Jews are not in Israel. I think there are more Jews in the U.S. Then in Israel or a least close to the same amount.

Holocaust Israel Re-establishment

I do not know, but it would not bother me if God used potentially uncomfortable means to bring to pass his will. I am sure we would all be surprised at the means by which God brings to pass his will.

Scripturally there are many accounts and records of God using wicked men to bring to pass his purposes (there is a discussion out there on this one)

Isiah53, why are you so bothered that God might use death and destruction to bring his children to him on occasion?

This next one should disturb you more.

According to this God uses both his servants, his voice, his mercy, but if these do not work we have scriptural evidence that God uses tempests, earthquakes hailstorms, famines and pestilences of every kind (all paradoxically acts of mercy) that ultimately result in the death and suffering of many people.

Are you not able to worship a God who freely admits to killing his children and causing them to suffer to give them a message?

Re-establishment Of Israel Through Holocaust

That is correct. I am not comfortable worshiping a god like this. I wonder why you are? I do not think that God does this at all. Where in the gospels do we see Christ behaved like this/ He is like the Father in all things, if the Father kills freely then the son would do the same. But he does not do this. Instead he would rather die himself then to allow violence upon others. Thus I can safely say that the Father is like this as well.

I think that the earth quakes, fire and brimstone and all the other disasters are all allegorical. (I think that this is the case with the book of revelation. Most of the disasters in the book of revelation follow the exodus pattern to prove a point)

I think that we humans project the violence and tragedies on the world upon God. This is a way to take the guilt and responsibility off of us and put it on God. That does not mean that he did it. When we do this we do not feel morally obligated when bad things happen, because we put the responsibility of God. This is dangerous and I do not accept it. I do not have the space nor the time to show my point in scripture. (believe me this point can be made very strongly, but I do not have 20 pages here to make that point.) Again if this is the case, you are stuck with a immoral God. And a contradiction that God cannot sin or he would cease to be God. This is a problem I do not have but you do logically and theologically, that you have yet to explain.

With this said I do think that God can take the wickedness of men and turn it into a redeeming act. But that does not mean that God willed the wickedness.

Re-establishment Israel Holocaust

I believe that the question "Would God be immoral if he used death and destruction to lead his people to a certain part of the world?" is the fundamental question here. I do not know if God used the Holocaust to move his people to a certain area,(though it is my opinion he did so )but I do not see it as immoral to do so.

Since death is not permanent, God is not sinning by moving a person from this life to the spirit world. It is his prerogative to do so. There are times that God will move people from this life to the next when they are causing entire generations to sin (which I believe will be the case as the signs of the times continue) as I believe he has moved righteous people to the next life for other righteous purposes. With our limited perspectives, we believe this would be a sin for God to cause the death of anyone, but we see that he will and does cause the death of his children in all scriptures. Why are we so weak in this Generation to believe that God mentions that he causes Earthquakes, Seas going beyond their bounds, and other natural disasters and believe this is allegorical? I do not need to explain that God does use death and destruction to teach his children, the Scriptures and Modern Prophets do that for me (See D&C 61 5;31).

Reading the scripture leads me to believe that God admits freely that he uses violence and death to accomplish his works. I believe it is our weakness in the Western World that leads us to believe that God would never use violence.

There are plenty of instances in the Old testament, New Testament Doctrine and Covenants,and Book of Mormon which explicitly shows God using violence ,that you think are allegorical, but that I believe are literal instances where God has required the death of certain individuals. To say that I have not explained logically and theologically is a mistake. I just disagree with your interpretation that all of the destruction is Allegorical. I believe it to be very literal, and in fact justified and Holy. It is all interpretation.

Mosiah 12: 4-8

So by your estimation, the threats by a prophet of God that God would Send hail to smite them, and swarms of insects would devour their food, and that he would utterly destroy the people from the face of the earth, is just an empty threat and is allegorical. Why would God even say this if He would not be willing to follow through. (God does not threaten, He promises.) Are we to believe this is not a literal part of the book of Mormon? I believe so. Is this allegorical? No it is not in my opinion.

God kills people sometimes. We are just too weak to understand this because we feel this would be a sin. It is not a sin; it is God cutting short mortal life for a purpose that is holy, and it is a fulfillment of his promises (God always warns a nation before destroying it.) God has said that his word must be fulfilled (and not just allegorically). King Noah's Kingdom was literally destroyed as he knew it. In my opinion, He does not do these things out of vengeance, but he does so out of love.


Brigham Young said:

He literally destroys empires (this has involved the death of people). If you believe God is Immoral because he causes the death of people,then we cannot agree on these points.

This all may have nothing to do with the Holocaust, but I do believe if God wants to destroy empires (take this as you will) or smite his people, he can and he will. I just do not know if the Holocaust was used by God to move the Jews toward settling Israel, and I believe you cannot know this either. Neither of us know the mind of God, we can only interpret history and the words of the Prophets.