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The Worst Sinners - Page 2

Yes, basically false righteousness to put it bluntly. It distorts what is real Truth. I see it time and time again in my own locality where certain things are the focus and the real meat is not. Actually I gave a talk last Sunday and I must have shared what Jesus Christ thought at least 6 or 7 times:

Its not 100 policies, proper ties, activity attendance and so forth - it is something BIGGER! I claim no emulation of Jesus, but I do not ascribe any man or activity to replace him either - focus on His words, there is safety there.

Sinners Worst The

I agree with Hugh Nibley's statement. When Jesus spoke about the Pharisees, in one of the occasions he emphasized negatively about the importance they put on the outward appearance, Luke 11:37 :

The last verse is so particularly interesting because it applies so much to the present Church...basically, so we see everyone who dress nicely and present themselves in a certain way and suddenly we assess them as "clean", as "worthy", etc just because of their outward appearance.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for being careful to appear righteous on the outside and that's exactly what Hugh Nibley is saying in that statement.

And Jesus continues (Matthew 23: 25-28)...

The white shirt, the tie, the colgate smile, the high calling ("high seats" according to Jesus) etc, are all the things we seem to be overly concerned about that it makes us appear as "active" when the real issues are missing all along (feed the poor, comfort the needy, visit the sick and afflicted) and giving praises to the ONLY person who we should give praises to and that's Jesus Christ, not the Bishop, not the Stake President, not the Prophet...only Him!

The Worst Sinners Studies Doctrine Mormon

While reading through the recent replies, I think I gained a little insight.

Yes, the sin against the Holy Ghost is the worst sin possible. But how many can even commit that sin? How likely is it that you or I will be in a position soon to do it?

But... It is very easy for us to become so tied up in making sure that we are perceived right, that we "fit the mold" of how we are supposed to act and look, that we completely miss the Gospel.

I have no doubt that most of us will qualify for the Terrestrial Kingdom. But one must have received their Second Anointing and have their Calling and Election Made Sure in order to commit the sin against the Holy Ghost.

But every one of us can commit the sins of priestcraft, idolatry, and pride. And, when we do, we distract others from their progression. We receive some responsibility for hurting them.

That is how I see Bro. Nibley's statements.

Page 2 Sinners Worst The

I am curious. If someone does believe it is important to have standards when passing the sacrament, believe patriotism is important, think there should be some standards of dress, automatically make one a pharisee?

Sinners Worst The

I am surprised by your reply Dbackers, I think my last post was quite clear, maybe wasn't?. Having a standard is not the issue but when becomes THE most important thing or an absolute requirement then it does become pharisiac in nature and Jesus spoke clearly against that in the Scriptures I quoted. Do you disagree with them? It is the over concern on the OUTWARD appearance and the judgment placed to each other based on that (who is more worthy and who is not) that makes the attitude pharisaic.

The Worst Sinners

A person believe that standards are important? No. My problem is when those external standards are used to judge other people.

I will go back to the young man who came to church in a brightly colored blue and yellow shirt, and wanted to pass the sacrament. Should the standard have been used to stop him from participating?

How about patriotism? Should I be patriotic to a horribly corrupt government in, say, Nazi Germany? Three young men who fought against the Nazis were excommunicated by their local leaders because they wouldn't support the government. Who should I be patriotic for, the USA or Zion? Isn't my greatest responsibility to build up Zion and follow God's laws? What if the laws of the land stop me from doing those things?

Whose dress standards? God's or Babylon's? The Babylonian uniform or just simply nice, clean clothes with good hygiene?

Actually, what do the scriptures say about these things? Repentance wearing sackcloth and ashes appears to be the norm. An intense focus on physical standards being pharisaic.

The point in Bro. Nibley's talk appears to be when the focus is FIRST on the appearance, THEN on the substance. Appearance should be far down the list of importance, not first.

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I just looked up the original quote by Bro. Nibley. He expounded further with:

Can you imagine? A prophet telling us to not conform! Don't sign that temperance pledge! What's that? Don't sign a pledge that you will keep the Word of Wisdom?

Finally, a quote from Joseph Smith.

What's this? Joseph claimed the right to think and believe as he pleased, without fear of being excommunicated? That doesn't sound right, does it?

Message Edited... Thanks to LDS_Forever for providing the source for the Joseph Smith quote.

Edited: Nighthawk on 31st Jul, 2009 - 8:12pm

The Worst Sinners - Page 2

I wanted to clarify what we were discussing here. I think I am with you on all of the points, I just wanted to make sure that we weren't condemning all who would have some type of standards.

Man should be more focused on his own inner vessel, rather then focused on other peoples outer one.

I am uncomfortable with any type of judgement of others as pertaining to there standing in the Gospel. That's why this topic is somewhat uncomfortable to me.

The Worst Sinners Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

Why is it exactly uncomfortable? Do you think Hugh Nibley is judging others unfairly? For me, he is saying exactly what we are saying, he is giving a wake up call to all those who try to fool others in their outward appearance and behavior and the naive folks who fall into the trap.

In our Church whether most people want to admit it or not there is a huge emphasis on outward appearance associated with worthiness or righteousness and worldly things (how financially stable you are, profession, friendliness, etc) Even callings are seen seen as higher than others and its association with "more" knowledge the higher the calling (as discussed in the thread about General Authorities being human) All these traits are pharisaic in nature (in my opinion) that makes the Church sometimes look more interested in pleasing Babylon or use its standards of measurement than to please God's standards about seeing into people's hearts. It's concerning at times.