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Covenants: Personal God Or General God

Covenants: Personal God or General God

When God makes a covenant with His people is it done collectively or individually? For instance if ten people in one house break the covenant but two people in the same house keep the covenant will that mean that the two may have to pay the price for the 10 who do not keep the covenant?

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I think that covenants are both personal and communal. Take for instance Zion. The united order is both a personal and communal covenant. With that said, I do not think that God creates punishments for sin, or covenant breaking. I do not think that he sits on his throne and smites those who sin or break covenants. However, I do believe that when we sin, or break covenants, there are consequences because that is how life works, not because God is punishing you. For example, if I use drugs and disregard the word of wisdom I can ruin my life, but I do not think that God sends that as a punishment. I think it is because there are physical laws with health that just exists.

With that said, I think that when one breaks a covenant its effects more then the individual. It effects everyone in that relationship. For example if I commit adultery and break my covenant, not only does the consequences effect me but my family and my ward community as well. They will unfortunately suffer some of the consequences of my actions. But that does not necessarily mean they are being punished by a stern God. I feel that all covenants are relational.

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Good points. Thus you are saying that regardless to how well you keep your covenant you are subject to the consequences of sin for those who break it just because you happen to be in the same environment as they?

God General God Personal Covenants

That's very often been the case with God's leaders. Some argue Joseph Smith was martyred for the wickedness of his own people, who accused him of being a false prophet when he fled to safety across the Mississippi River. In that episode Joseph and Hyrum were ready to head west but decided to turn themselves in after they realized the saints were pridefully decrying him for fleeing what he knew would be his death. Did Joseph sin? No. Yet he died in consequence of breaking of covenants.

Moses never led the people of Israel to the promised land. Why? Because the people were wicked and broke the covenants of God, forcing Moses to spend his ministry leading those people in the wilderness for 40 years. Did Moses sin? No. Yet he suffered in consequence of breaking of covenants.

It works the other way, too. Many are born into an eternal family. This is a positive effect some children exprience that is not a consequence of any earthly covenant kept by the children. IMO, Community covenants can, if kept or broken by the community, affect the lives of all members of the community--regardless of the individuals' keeping or breaking of the covenant.

I agree with Isaiah53. Covenants operate on both a personal and community level. I think God cannot bring about the community blessings of a covenant until the community keeps the covenant. He cannot bring about the individual blessings of a covenant until the individual keeps the covenant.

Message Edited... Persephone: It is not necessary to quote the entire post of the user above you. See Constructive Posting Policy.

God General God Personal Covenants

Good question. Here's what I think. I think each covenant is personal. When you make a covenant with Heavenly Father isn't done on a group basis. If some people are cursed because they didn't keep the covenants then you have to move away from them so you do not suffer the same consequences they will. If you stay then you'll just suffer the same things they do.

Covenants: Personal God Or General God

Yes, because we are intertwined. We are all affected by what each other do. For example, if my brother gets a divorce from his wife, event hough I did not make that covenant of marriage that exists between them, I am affected by the marriage breakup. It is not to the same degree as my brother, but I am affected. This effect has no barring on how well I keep my covenants. IF my country enters an unrighteous war, it effects me, no matter how well I keep my covenants. We are all interconnected that is all I am saying. Now I do not call this punishment from God per say, but rather the natural effects of sin. I think covenants keep protect us from natural effects that happen when we sin. It is not God's will that punishes, but rather sin. For example, if I am unfaithful in my marriage, I do not think that God punishes me for my sin, rather because of my sin, things happen like my marriage ending, and my family falling apart. I do not think that God willed that as a punishment, but rather that is that fruit of sin. By keeping my covenant, I am protected from sin and its fruits.

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Then we have to consider what is the course of a covenant that involves let's say 'protection from enemies' if you are around people who break their covenant and lose protection from enemies. Are we to say that the 'natural effects of sin' is greater than God's ability to protect us in this environment?

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I think that it is naive to say that God protects us from all the effects of others sins. (I am not sure that you are saying this.) The reality is when others sin that are close to you, one is effected by it to some degree. Our covenants may protect us to some degree, but it cannot negate all of the effects of sin that we may have nor is it designed to do so. I think we are to mourn with those who mourn, we are interconnected and I think that part of life is to suffer the burdens of others. I think Moroni who kept his covenants suffered from the sins of his people. He was left alone for may years. This was an effect of the sins of his people.
But again, I guess we get back to the question of how much influence does God power have on the world and what he can stop or prevent. ( We seem to keep coming back to this fundamental question.)