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Mormons & Torture - Page 2

I have to agree with the quiet man. I personally believe that it is torture, plain and simple, and I have not seen anyone prove that it is not. I see a lot of rhetoric to get around it, but it always comes back to being torture. I am glad we have a President who has to moral fortitude to say No. No matter what you call it, I have always thought that America was better then this.

I do not think that anyone here has advocated this. I think what the quiet man was saying was no to give in, but to stand up with our morality intact. I think that he is saying that it is better to be moral and have oppression then it is to be free and immoral because it is a far greater cost to pay. I am always confused as to why conservatives seem to relate to not torturing as being weak and giving in and supporting terrorist. This is asinine. I think we can stand up and defend our country without torture or "harsh interrogation."

First Capt. Moroni was not a conservative republican. There was no such thing, so I do not think we can put him in this camp. Secondly, Moroni is working from an ancient sacrificial system of order that is used by all ancient societies. He is a product of his day. This is religious anthropology 101. Trust me, his solution would not fly today by the rightest of all conservative war hawks. I do not think that killing anyone who opposes to his political agenda would get much support.

Yes it is torture, and it is wrong as I said above. Look where is gets the Nephites at the end of the book. If you critically think through the BOM I would think that you have to ask the question how did Moroni's actions help contribute to the end of the Nephites? Why did his actions not solve their problems? It is apparent his actions did not help to change the Nephites position.

I think that we need to look at the high moral cost we are paying for such actions. I am not a hippie or a pacifist. If anything we get from the BOM it is that there is a cost to living like the Nephites, and their wars. Do you not think that our solders who are doing the torturing will not suffer later in their lives and it will not affect their families? What about the LDS woman who was a RM and was involved in this behavior who committed suicide over the guilt from the exposure and actions? You may be saying you are protecting your family, but the moral cost of that protection may be devastating. Do you not want to protect the troops and their families? Or are we willing to destroy their morality for our freedom.

I have a brother who has done a tour over in Iraq. He lost a lot of his company that he was with. He killed, saw the torture, and saw some of his friends killed, was exposed to chemicals and now that he is home he suffers, with post traumatic syndrome and a neurological condition. His relationships with others suffers, from what he saw and did. His marriage is effected negatively because of it. So I know the personal effects that this has on these solders. This torturing has moral and spiritual implications that we do not think about until you have seen the effects first hand. Remember, What would Jesus do. He would climb on the cross and die so that we would not have to. He would rather die himself then to see any of this children or sinner suffer.

Torture and Mormons

Captain Moroni did not ever use torture. Ever. Look at those verses about the king-men. They took up arms against Moroni. They engaged in warfare against the Nephite armies. They willingly fought against Moroni's army. And what did Moroni do with those who did not die in the battle? They were put into prison. In no instance does Moroni do anything other than enforce the laws of his nation. That is not torture. That is justice.

Mormons & Torture Studies Doctrine Mormon

The question was if Moroni would have used torture. It seems like there is evidence that he did.



(I did not say he was a conservative republican, I stated he was a Right wing Extremist. There is a difference

Actually he did not just put them in prison, they were actually put to death.

Executing You political rivals sounds like torture.

Isaiah53
I do agree that different times may call for different measures.
But all who argue against torture, when does harsh interrogation end (Which I believe most people would support) and torture start? There has to be a way to get important information out of terrorists rather then love them to death. We have to find that line.

Page 2 Torture and Mormons

Nah. Read the account. The 4,000 were killed in battle. Those who were not killed in battle were put in prison. The account is very clear. No one was put to death. And no one was tortured. Killing people is not torture unless your method of inflicting death involves prolonged, painful means. That is the definition of torture. I challenge you to show me a single verse where Moroni uses prolonged infliction of pain to compel someone to change his mind or reveal some information. (Don't spend too long looking, as you won't find one)

On the other hand, the Book of Mormon is clear that Moroni did not desire to shed blood. The very foundations of hell are not shaken by men who torture, the foundations of hell are strengthened by such. Moroni was no such man. That's my point of view. Thoughts?

P.S. You mentioned that Captain Moroni was a "right-wing extremist." I'm curious... What was Christ?

Torture and Mormons

Isn't anything that makes you feel uncomfortable essentially torture though? I mean just being locked up is torture.

Mormons & Torture

The international definition of torture specifies mental and physical pain, anguish. That is a difference then being uncomfortable. Yes prison can legally be torture, that is why prisoners right in the U.S. Is so big. That is why they get 3 meals, cable TV, & etc.

I guess I take Pres. Snow's advise "if you err, err on the side of mercy." that is where I stand. Call it what you like harsh interrogation is torture- and wrong. If this was done in any other nation it would be a war crime. It hurts the enemy and our own troops who do the act. Do we not protect them? (no I do not think most Americans support such interrogations) is there a way to get more information? Yes, All studies show that torture actually does not get good information. That is common knowledge. The way to get information is leg work, good old fashion intelligence, from human operatives, which we have got away from. (see 911 commission report). This is how it is done.

Mormons & Torture - Page 2

Christian View On Torture

Name: Norm
Country:

Comments: I'm a retired Marine having been through Vietnam & Desert storm.

For me any form of torture of which, water boarding is only a mild form compared to real torture, is not justified in God's eyes.

It's not that it can't be tactically effective, I just think in the overall strategic methods of God, that this definitely falls in the category of relying on the arm of flesh "literally" by scourging it to gain information.

I just can't picture any of God's Armies of the past doing this. To get in there and end the life of those out to kill you, seems perfectly ok. It's not the intent of a true warrior of God to want to see your enemy suffer. He's got a family too.

To adopt torture as an acceptable method of extracting info, implies a like characteristic of the enemy that makes him an enemy to God.

I think this must always be kept in the context of what would Jesus do in a similar situation.

The Nephites offered their enemies a chance to change their ways and join them and if not, they killed them.

I think this is the proper approach to war.

Kill your enemy and spare those who opt to no longer come at you but rather honestly decide to join you.

Then there would be no need for delving into alternative methods of complicating what should be...Very simple solutions in war.

Joshua & his guys didn't seem to experience the "complexities" of morals that we impose upon ourselves today.

Killing a true enemy to God, assuming that we are on God's side, is moral.

Torturing an enemy is not moral but rather stoops to his level.

The indicator that we are not so much on God's side anymore, is our inability to recognize what I have just described.

The clear lines of morality have been blured by our own collective sins against God as a society once chosen by God.

We've become the Nephites described in the final chapters of the BOM as a Nation, as well as a Covenant people of God.

In God's realm of reasoning...Torture is not a justifiable option... Righteousness & humble prayer... Are.

The "arm of flesh" solutions to gaining short term human intelligence is replacing the long term eternal solutions to accessing God for the info we need to win a war...Just like David and Joshua did.

No member of the Lord's covenant should even consider the prospect of torture as acceptable. Does not God have knowledge of the info we need to win a war?

We have digressed way beyond any of the recent wars we've engauged in, as being worthy causes to begin with.

Our response to 911 was completely inappropriate. We as a Nation should have dropped to our knees and begged for God's forgiveness and then pleaded for strength & knowledge needed to defeat our enemy after pledging ourselves to return to the founding principles of God.

Then God would have granted us victory. I think we failed to recognize the reason for our enemy being allowed to sneak up on us like they did.

It's not the lack of political or technical skills this nation pocesses...it's a lack of relying on God. And when we opt to live lives of sin, we shut ourselves off to his intelligence & protection from our enemies and we become our own worst enemies, ever searching for that technological or human intelligence edge at overcoming our enemies.

So no. Torture is just another of those cleaver human devices to avoid accessing a God that we have thoroughly disappointed and torqued off at this point.

Where is a member's heart & mind when contemplating it's justified use?

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