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By Their Fruits We Shall Know Them

Ok, so this is an extension of a conversation that came up between myself, McKay and Dbackers... We were discussing the interpretation of "fruit".

These wolves are currently among us, but how do we recognize them? What are their fruits? Most say the fruits are actions, deeds or works. For example praying. Good people pray, bad people don't. However, this interpretation does not fit with what Moro. taught,

There seems to be a contradiction here. Moroni says an evil man cannot do a good work. But he admits that an evil man can pray and give gifts which we would all say are good works.

So here is the question. If I were to see two people praying and one were evil and one were good, how could I tell them apart? If I were to see two people, (One evil man and one good man), giving a gift, how would I tell them apart?
If I were at church and heard from the pulpit two talks given one from a True prophet, (Person with a testimony of Christ), and one from a false prophet, (A person without a testimony), how could I tell which was the wolf in sheeps clothing and which was a sheep that follows the shepherd? When they are doing the same action, work or deed, what is the fruit by which we really know them?

Edited: Amonhi on 7th Nov, 2007 - 1:46am

Them Shall Fruits By

I am far from knowledgable in most of these areas but I did have a couple thoughts as I was reading your post.

1) In the Moroni scripture it seems to be saying that the issue of prayer would be judged by the Lord so maybe we wouldn't even deal with that situation (judging two men praying). I know that was just an example you gave--I just picked that out from the scripture you chose.

2) In my opinion I think one of the major ways we can tell the "fruit" of our fellow man is through the gift of discernment, which can be manifested through the Holy Ghost.

Using your example of being at sacrament and heard two people speak from the pulpit, the Holy Ghost would bear truth of the fruits of the good man and would NOT of the evil. I think you could even feel the "missing" good from the evil man.

3) Have you ever watched two people try to gain someone's love or trust--one goes about it on the surface as good but in reality he is manipulating and jealous while the other (good) does all they can and hopes it is enough to build the relationship on. You can usually tell when someone is sincere I think.

By Their Fruits We Shall Know Them Studies Doctrine Mormon

I would say we shouldn't try to tell them apart. We cannot judge if someone is Faithful in their callings or that their prayer is more justified before the Lord. We do not know a person's motives, we cannot know a persons motives, nor should we attempt to gauge someones worthiness. We do not have all the information.

Now, when the person who is a leader asks use to do something within the church, we have complete free agency to abide by that council or to ignore it. That is the nature of an all volunteer Church. All leaders are flawed in some way, so I think we should be cautious in completely ignoring counsel just because we know the Leader has some faults. The Holy Spirit, as you have pointed out, should be our guide in all things. We must be careful, I believe, in not letting our personal pride, anger at someone because they offended us, thoughts that we are better then the other person, get in the way of true inspiration.

I believe Moroni is speaking to us individually. He is attempting to say that the most important thing is not that we do good works, but rather we have a change of heart that leads us to good works. The Scriptures are explicit in that we must keep our covenants and follow the Laws of the Lord. In Doctrine and Covenants 132:21 it states:

So the fruits of a person's changed heart is in fact Good(Charitable) Works. Without these works that come out of a changed heart, our conversion eventually becomes null and void, or in the words of James "dead".

Rather off topic, but... I have always believed that we can never judge another person's motives. It is impossible, unless we have been allowed by the Lord to do so(something that the Lord will rarely do if the person is not in our stewardship, and even then it is rare). It is a dangerous habit to look at people and think "They are not doing this or that for a good reason, therefore the Lord is not going to accept that". When I was a teenager, my parents were teaching me about compassionate service and "made" me participate in community projects . I was initially grumpy at first, but doing the works actually changed my heart, when I saw the effect on other people. I began to realize that helping others was something that I needed to do out of love and not just out of duty. If another person had judged me because of my initial attitude and told me I might as well go home because the service was not doing me any good, I might have not learned and important lesson.

Them Shall Fruits By

I think Moroni is speaking more to us then to how we can tell how if others are good or not.
I feel that Moroni is telling us that you know the saying that good people do good works, and evil people do evil works, but that is not enough. It is not what you do but how you do it. If you do your works, prayer for example grudgingly then it is not a good work. To follow Christ means much more then going through the motions, and works, but there must be a conviction or as Paul says there must be charity or it is all for not. I think Moroni in some way is conceding to the idea that evil people can do seemingly good things, but it is there intent as to why they do them that they are being judged upon. I think Moroni is telling the saints that we need to focus on our motives and intent when we act or behave. Moroni defines good works as actions that are done with righteous intent or with charity. Thus it is this defining principal that separates and "evil man" from an "good man".

It is a very bold assertion to use the wording of "evil man" and "good man". Even Paul does not use such wording in Galatians. That wording is very strong, because he does not define the action as evil but the person acting out the work as evil.

The problem with this is that I do things in my life that are seemly good actions, but that they may not be with the intent that Moroni requires. Why because I am not perfect and human. So by Moroni's definition it is not my action that is evil, but me as a person. So is Moroni being to extreme with this idea and Paul's idea that the action is not good not necessary the person is wrong?

Now using Moroni's idea, what if today I do some good work with not the intent that Moroni suggests and I by his definition then I am an "evil man", however tomorrow I do a good work with the intent that Moroni requires then by his definition I am a "good man."
So then does my standing with God change on a day to day basis, or perhaps and hour to hour or minute to minute basis? If I was evil then according to Moroni, I cannot do good the next day because evil cannot do good works. (v6 " a man being evil cannot do that which is good.") So that means that I am constantly changing from good to bad visa versa. Instead of Paul's assertion that that I can do good and evil works if I do not do it with Charity? So is it me that is evil or is it the works that are evil?
Just some thoughts.

Them Shall Fruits By

Regarding Judging others in relation to my questions: This is a very good point, however, We are told by Christ:

Notice the context of what he is saying. He is warning us about these wolves and following the warning with insight as to how we will recognize these dangerous wolves. He wants us to recognize them. How can we recognize them if we do not:
1) Know how to recognize them.
2) Do not look for them in our midst?
This does require judgement, primarily for our own protection. (Wolves kill sheep.)
Later in the chapter, as Moroni is talking about how to recognize the fruit he warns us not to "judge wrongfully":

With that in mind, I am still asking how we recognize the wolves disguised as sheep.

I love it!

Not the action, but the intent. (This is why I said sin was not actions but intents under the higher law of love.)

You already answered your own question. If we have charity or the pure love for, from, and like Christ, then we are good. If we do not, then we are not. God is love, and if we want to be good like God, we must also follow Christ's example and become love.
So, then the question, what is the fruit of the true sheep and what is the fruit of the Wolf? I then put forth that the fruit of the sheep is the same fruit as the spirit who is also good.

If the fruits of the spirit are feelings, intents, motivations and attitudes, why then would we think that our fruits are anything less? Our fruits are not works, actions or deeds. Instead our fruit is what we gather to ourselves and give out to others while we are doing what we are doing.

Do we really fluctuate between good and evil fruit? Does our core motivation really change from love to hate or hate to love every day? Can a wolf be a wolf on some things and a sheep on others?

What happens when we "make" people to who are good do things like you just said. What happens when we make people who are "wolves" do things like this? Were you a wolf or a sheep or both? How do you know? Where is the damage the wolves or false prophets cause?

By Their Fruits We Shall Know Them

I suppose I see it absolutely in a different manner. I do not think there are good men, we are all "evil" to some extent.

When the Savior, the begotten son of the Father was referred as "Good Master", he immediately rejected the flattery by stating there was only one "Good" and that was God. That's how I see it as well.

By Fruits Shall Them

When it involves a minor child it is appropriate to "make" them do good things to eventually mold them into better people. Actions change our hearts and the heart changes our actions. You cannot have one without the other.

By Fruits Shall Them Mormon Doctrine Studies

Good stuff.

Dbackers- I feel your right. It is our intent instead of actions. I guess then Moroni, would say that is our intent is bad then we are evil. I feel that is a very extreme and finite thing to say. I feel we all do things with wrong intent as some point in our lives, and we do things with good intent as well. By Moroni's definition people who do things with bad intent are evil and cannot do anything with good intent. I feel from my experience in life that this is not so. We do a mix of both but good and evil intent, and that life is much more messier then Moroni's describes. Clearly he is pulling from Alma's ideas of Human nature and sin more then he is using Lehi's ideas.

LDS_forever, you said that you do not see anyone as "good men" but all have some sort of evil. That is interesting, I struggle with this idea myself. It would be a good discussion to talk about the nature of men and the fall. I lean towards your idea that we all have evil or carnal within us, so I struggle with Lehi's idea of the nature of men in 2 NE.2. (Although Lehi's idea of Opposition IN all things kind of makes exception to our internal struggles we have with sin, he still makes it clear that no one has evil tendencies unless it is by choice. which I struggle with.) While Alma tends to take a hybrid approach to what we are saying. Just an interesting idea.