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Eternal Progression In The Kingdoms - Page 2

Name: Gordon

Comments: Dear Woody,

I agree completely with what you've said.

I envision righteous family members seeking out their family members whom they love, inviting them to believe and repent in the next life in the lower kingdom they dwell in.

I envision family members in the Celestial Kingdom will be visiting the Terrestial Kingdom to save their kindred dead, while family members in the Terrestial Kingdom will be visiting their kindred dead in the Terrestial Kingdom.

I see a great purpose for having a different member of the Godhead governing each kingdom and providing assistance in this great missionary effort to redeem all of Heavenly Father's children so that all of Heavenly Father's children who do not rebell against the Holy Ghost will eventually be able to return and live with Him.

I also think that before any "saved" individual in Heavenly Father's Celestial Kingdom is allowed to advance in priesthood power and authority, the the work of redeeming his family heritage on this earth has to be completed.

I would really appreciate your sharing additional scriptures that will support this view of the Plan of Eternal Progression.

Question: Why isn't this knowledge of "Eternal Progression In the Kingdoms" being taught as doctrine in church meetings and classes, especially by the missionaries?

Currently, I think most members feel that once you have received the final judgement and assigned to a kingdom of glory after the resurrection, you will be "stuck" there for all eternity.

Source 1: D & C 128:15

Kingdoms The Progression Eternal

To answer your question of why this is not taught in Gospel Doctrine classes and the like is beyond me. It is touched on in institute classes and classes at BYU. I came to know these truths while on my mission, but didn't teach it because I was called to teach our of Preach My Gospel. Also I think if this was widely taught people wouldn't be as motivated to do good. Many people are motivated by fear rather than by the love of God. So they would think well I am going to make it because my dad is the bishop so off to they bars and strip clubs. (Just a thought?)

As for additional info on this here is a quote by Elder Orson Whitney that I believe was given in 1929 or 1930 conference. Elder Whitney says,

lder Whitney is actually quoting Joseph Smith here but I could not find the source of the original quote either way it was either the words of the Prophet or Elder Whitney.

Another quote by the same Apostle of the Lord said in I believe the same conference talk this:

(in Conference Report, April 1929)

Parallel to this is the parable of the sheep in Luke 15:8-10

Another good quote is by Elder Talmage one of the great geniuses of this dispensation he said talking to parents in a stake conference meeting,

"I promise the Saints in the Deseret stake of Zion that if their lives are such that they can look their sons and daughters in the face, and if any of them have gone astray, that the parents are able to say, "It is contrary to my instruction and my life's example; it is against every effort of love, long suffering, faith, prayer and devotion that that boy or that girl has gone,"-I promise you, fathers and mothers, that not one of them shall be lost unless they have sinned away the power to repent"

(in Conference Report, October 1919, 161). Keep in mind that according to President Kimball the general population of the church is not capable of sinning away the power to repent. They would have to have a PERFECT knowledge of God given to him by a vision from the Holy Ghost, and then after that perfect knowledge turn from it and publicly shame the church and persecute/kill his servants.

I had a religion professor at BYU say to my class

He went on to explain that the 1/3 that went with Satin and those who become the sons of perdition (like cain) he will not be able to save but all the rest he can.

AND GOD DOES NOT FAIL!

(Let me know if you want any further information. I can discuss the gospel all day long!)

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Eternal Progression In The Kingdoms Studies Doctrine Mormon

Name: Gordon

Comments: My understanding of the gospel is that unless you participate and accept all of the sacred ordinances of the Lord's temple, you cannot enter into His kingdom. Since our present earth is destined to exist only for 7000 years, I presume that all of the temple work has to be done in the millenium when Jesus Christ returns to rule and reign.

Question: Will resurrected persons who have been assigned to lower kingdoms of glory, have unlimited time to accept the temple works which will have been done for them, or will they only have until the end of the millenium when Satan will gather his forces to fight against God for the last time, and then be banished to outer darkness?

Question: Once Satan is banished to outer darkness at the end of the Millenium, and doesn't have any more influence in the lives of men/women that are not sons/daughters of perdition; what happens to the agency of man if only good thoughts and actions prevail? How can good exist without its' counterpart of evil existing simultaneously with it?

Question: What reward can a resurrected person living in a lower kingdom expect to receive if there is no opposition any more to the gospel plan? How then does a righeous person living in a lower kingdom continue to live by faith without opposition to what is being taught?

Once we are dead on this earth, is not the "time" for works over? Has not the prodigal son squandered his inheritance, never to receive all that the Father has?

Question: If justice is to be served, how does the prodigal son receive God's greatest gift that of His "Character" if agency or evil no longer exists to develop it?

Source 1: 3 Nephi 27:33

Page 2 Kingdoms The Progression Eternal

That isn't fully known. We don't know what these children where like in the pre-mortal life.

How is that unfair? Both aren't held accountable until the age of accountability.
One dies before that age, and thus any sins committed are taken up in Christ.
The same holds true for the other person, they just have to make that choice to Follow Christ.

But the one, as you pointed out, has an opportunity to grown here on earth! In a sense experience a mortal probation to its fullness.

Because one had the chance to learn Good and evil and choose evil. The other did not have that chance (During there Mortal Life) From what I gather here there is no Justice! No matter how evil somebody is, no matter how the person sins, as long as some point in time (no matter how far down the road) they should be given another chance.
How many chances should a person be given? How many chances does a person need to be given to show they are willing to Obey God and follow him? Should Satan be given another chance? What about the One Third that didn't come to earth, do they get another chance?

Justice is holding people accountable for there actions. A law is broken, the Punishment there. This is how Laws work. This is how God works.
I don't think you have a problem with this. The problem is TIME. From what I can tell, you don't feel God has any set time. So if people sin there whole life, reject ever good gift. Reject Christ and Heavenly Father. That as long as this person as enough TIME they well come around and see the light! But why? Why would somebody that has sinned or made the wrong choice, want to change after all of that?
Wouldn't think you God designed the plan of salvation perfectly for all people! That the test of this life (and the Spirit world) is designed perfectly for people to show there true colors. That given the chance to choose Good or Evil, or Choose God or not, that people are going to make the same choice.

Bring back the idea of Unfair, how is it Fair, that I live a Mortal life Trying my hardest to keep the commandments, I in a sense give everything up to God to be like Him, then some other guy that never kept one commandment, never was baptized in this life. Lived of the world. Goes into the Telestial Kingdom and then progresses to be next to me? How is that fair? What Motivation do I have then to keep the commandments, if I know all Kingdoms end up leading a path to the Celestial Kingdom?

I'm not saying we won't want to help others! I think those in the Celestial Kingdom well want to help them. But Mercy can't rob Justice! Just because I want my friend to get out of Prison doesn't mean I can do anything about it! In the end, its there choice of how far they want to progress, not how far I want them to progress, there is a difference.

How is that Fair? Where is the Justice for those that sinned, if there Reward is the same as Mine who tried not to sin?

What would make them "eventually change"? After all the tests God puts us through to see if we choose Good over Evil. After being taught the plan of Salvation and the Atonement in the Spirit World, and the person choose Evil! They still Eventually are going to want to change? Why? The only idea you have presented is that once they get bored that is what is going to make them change?
So not having the Teaching presented to them is going to make them want to keep the commandments, but living in one place for a long time is?

Wait! Hold On a second! Did you see what you just typed there! You said there are consequences to our choices! Whoa that is a new idea isn't it! That if people sin, there is a consequences to that choice!

Don't you feel as a person sins they loose the spirit in small amounts. The farther from God people go, the less they have the spirit to be with them. In a sense the less light they have. Those in the Terrestial and Telestial Kingdom have lost part of there "identity" as children of God. How in the world would they get that back living in the Terrestial or Telestial Kingdom?

Kingdoms The Progression Eternal

You are mixing in three different ideas together. Even more you have proven that we don't need the atonement (suffer for sins) because we can do that ourselves. You also proved that agency has no factor, because if my parents are righteous (and sealed) then I"ll gain Celestial Glory regardless of how I lived my life?

First we have to talk about Laws. D&C 88 teach us

So if I can't keep the Celestial Law, I"m not going to get to the Celestial Kingdom.
The Laws of God are Eternal, they are God's Law. No mortal person can "atone" for God's law.

Nothing I do, no amount of suffering can cause me to Atone for my sins. Me being mortal can't pay the demands of justice for an eternal law. This why we need Jesus Christ!

So what is Section 19 talking about! Its not talking about paying the price of Justice for an Eternal Law, its paying the price for a lower kingdom.

No amount of suffering is going to get me to Celestial Kingdom! The only way to get to Celestial Kingdom is through Jesus Christ.
Section 19 is talking about those that go to the Telestial Kingdom. These are the ones that turn away from Christ and his Atonement. Of Course those that reject the atonement are going to have suffer. They get thrown into outer darkness for a time, to pay the price.

Alma probably did feel part of this. But we all feel some of the torment when we turn away from God. The point I guess I"m trying to make is either you Repent, or you suffer, you don't do both. The point of the atonement (and repentance) is so you don't have to suffer.

So it doesn't matter what I do. If my parents are righteous and are sealed. Nothing I do can stop me from getting Celestial Glory?

Visiting them I agree. Help them gain Celestial Glory I don't see how they can?

I would too, but your scriptures don't support that idea. The idea is that righteous family well be together. Nothing about progress between kingdoms.

So how about this scripture I found from D&C 132. As we know this about Eternal Marriage.

I guess you guys can try to find any wiggle room in there. But to me, it seems pretty clear that if you do not have a sealing marriage, then there is no more advancing 'to all eternity". I don't think I noticed the word "enlarged" meaning there is no more progression.

Now Joseph Field Smith's Answer to this question.

And last again Elder Bruce R. McConkie at a BYU Devotional Said.

Elder McConkie makes a good point about the resurrection. The doctrine of the Resurrection is that our bodies are resurrected to the glory we gain. IF progression between kingdoms was true, then our Resurrected bodies would also have to progress. There is nothing in the scriptures about this.

Last I do feel you poke a hole in your own argument with this question.

Temple work is to be completed by the end of the Millennium. By Judgment time all would have had the chance to accept the work for the dead preformed for them. God isn't going to Judge somebody until they have made the choice of accepting the atonement or not. Part of Rejecting the atonement is rejecting the work for the dead preformed for the person.

That brings up your question, after somebody has rejected the atonement and the work for them, how can they progress to a higher kingdom?

Eternal Progression In The Kingdoms

Name: Gordon

Comments: Dear Tubaloth,

Thank you for sharing your remarks, thought and time that you put into them.

Question: Why would someone who's sinned all their life, rejecting the atonement of Christ, etc. Eventually change course?

I would like to compare the life long sinner to a person who ate candy all day long without brushing his teeth. Eventually his so called "happiness" of eating sweets, will make him very miserable because of the toothaches and pain that will develop from all the rot within him. Until the sinner (person that doesn't brush his teeth) seeks help to remove the rotten part of his teeth, he will continue to experience excruciating pain. And pain is not happiness. And, since we are all created in the image of God, I believe that we all have a natural desire to find true happiness.

Consequently, it is this pain or remorse of conscience that I believe will cause most of Heavenly Father's children to repent or seek help at some point in time or eternity to remove the rot from him/her. The infinite atonement is the only medicine that can stop the pain or remove the rot associated with guilt.

Now if I have a friend, who keeps telling me to go to the dentist to take care of my pain and I refuse to go because I don't believe my friend, then I have to suffer endlessly.
My friend is the Holy Spirit who tells me to see the dentist (Bishop / Christ) on a regular basis so that minor cavities (infractions) can be taken care of so that they don't produce the rottenness that will destroy my teeth or happiness.

Once I understand the importance of my dentist (Christ) in helping me stay healthy (happy), I will begin to find greater fulfillment and purpose in my life, and will be on a road of eternal progression.

Now, if the person refuses to see the dentist, (doesn't believe in the atonement of Christ) he would have to continue to suffer until he does. The only persons in this category are the Sons of Perdition. They continue to deny the truth which has been given to them by the Holy Spirit to make them happy, healthy, etc; and they seek their own course of action out of pure arrogance and pride.

I believe that everyone else, that doesn't rebel against the Holy Spirit will progress in happiness in the eternities, for that is the purpose of the Holy Spirit to bring us closer to our Heavenly Father and to become more like Him. Consequently, I believe Eternal judgment, or God's judgment is the natural result of our actions, and as long as we have a friend (the Holy Spirit) who keeps telling us to see the dentist (Christ) to put a beautiful smile back on our face...we will progress endlessly throughout eternity to a higher station, purpose and happiness than previously held no matter what kingdom we are in.

Justice follows the law of cause and effect. Mercy recues us from Justice if we will allow it to. The Holy Spirit is God's intelligence which wants to make us happy.

I believe the scriptures are there to warn us of the consequences of sin (not brushing our teeth) and the natural consequences of not seeking help (Christ's atonement) which is a rottenness or decay in our person for all eternity.

Question: If we had agency in our pre-mortal life and could choose to follow Christ, why can't we choose to follow Christ in our post-mortal life and progress?

Source 1: Alma 41:5
Source 2: Proverbs 10:7

Eternal Progression The Kingdoms - Page 2

Name: Gordon

Comments: I am changing my opinion about eternal progression.

I believe that there will be no eternal progression from one kingdom of glory to another, whereby all mankind can continue working for the same degree of glory in eternity if they choose.

The experiences of our school room, or this mortal earth life are the lessons that instruct us and prove us in the development of Christ's character, and will never happen again for any of us after the resurrection.

With immortal bodies, our "character" or "lack of it" is trapped, never again to be subjected in the same way as during our earth life, that can build God's character.

There would be no reason for exercising faith, belief, or the development of other Christ like virtues, once we are clothed with immortal bodies because all of the uncertainties present in this life which build and prove our character are over, never to repeat themselves again for us.

Consequently,if we fail to develop righteous desires in this life or in the Spirit World prior to our resurrection, while we are still subjected to all of the "unknowns or uncertainties" present to cultivate these desires; what would motivate us to do so in the next life with immortal bodies that can never die, experience pain or suffering in the Telestial or Terrestial kingdom?

I think the final judgment of God is the last gift given to all of us by our loving Heavenly Father to put an end to all the mental sufferings for our sins (exception being the Sons of Perdition). And, that when we are assigned and enter either the Telestial or Terrestial Kingdom, a new veil of forgetfulness will come upon us giving us peace and happiness in our new eternal home.

However, I think those in the Celestial Kingdom will still be allowed to visit family members in the lower kingdoms to check on their happiness because of their divine calling of becoming Heavenly Parents which is in the making.

Source 1: Abraham 3:25-26

Eternal Progression The Kingdoms Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

Having read all the other entries, I think that the teaching of the temple seems to imply that there is a progression through the temple, first we die and are resurrected symbolically by baptism, we then progress through a series of kingdoms and then enter the presence of God in the celestial room. This seems to suggest not only is progression possible, but that each of us will have to go through that progression in order to get to the celestial kingdom. As to what motives we would have if progression was possible this makes me think of D&C 130:18-19. As we are righteous in this life we are given light and truth, which we take with us to the next life that will give us advantage over those who may not have been as righteous or obedient in this life.