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Why Satan Chose Attempt Overthrow - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 15th Jan, 2010 - 8:59pm
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Post Date: 12th Jan, 2010 - 3:49am / Post ID: #
Why Satan Chose To Attempt An Overthrow
Hello To Everyone,
I want to tell you what I believe about why Lucifer chose to attempt an overthrow of Heavenly Father. I will use scriptures from the Book of Mormon and the Bible.
First I want you to think about everything that goes on in the world today and all of the unfortunate opportunities that people have to be led into destructive decisions. Now think to yourself, what sort of opposition could have influenced Lucifer to do what he did and convince others?
What is your conception of the pre-existence? At the end of this opinionated post you might expand your understanding of what existed there.
The principle of an opposition in all things precedes the Fall of Adam and Eve, just like the Priesthood precedes Jehovah and Elohim.
The number one reason why Lucifer did what he did was because he had seen it done before and work. This certainly ups the ante in the Great War of Heaven and rebukes the "All is well in Zion." attitude.
Everything that Jesus Christ did he learned from his Father in Heaven. John 8:28,
QUOTE "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."
Heavenly Father did not teach everything that Lucifer speaks. Neither did Lucifer come up with plans and secret combinations on his own. He had a tutor, or a series of tutors who were even more wicked then himself. I have a firm belief that Heavenly Father had a fallen brother, uncle, cousin etc... Who influenced Lucifer and a third of the hosts of heaven.
Think about it... To see something done in a way totally different from the way your Father taught you would surely make you confused. You would have questions. Maybe pride would trickle in. You'd say, "this is the way it is done on other worlds, why not here?"
Lucifer, on many occasions probably left the dominion of Heavenly Father to observe other kingdoms. And there on his sojourns into worlds unknown he received knowledge not taught in the Kingdom of our Father in Heaven. It grew in him like a little seed. A seed in opposition to the one mentioned in Alma 32:28. But Heavenly Father did not stop Lucifer, because agency is key to Heavenly Father's Priesthood.
Lucifer attempted a coup because he saw it done before and he saw it work. According to the Book of Mormon a God can cease to be a God.
QUOTE Alma 42:13 , "Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God."
How do you destroy the work of justice? Think about how this could be done.
QUOTE Alma 42:22, "But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God."
Alma 42:45, "What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God."
2nd Nephi 2:13, " And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."
Alma 42:45, "What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God."
2nd Nephi 2:13, " And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."
If there is no law, there is no God. If Mercy robs justice, God ceases to be God. Without honor and obedience to law (On behalf of the Children of Heavenly Father) God would cease to be God. It is honor that sustains God's power and his power gives him the ability to command the elements and to continue to progress. As our dominions grow (glory), so does His dominion.
Now this brings to light another really important aspect of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. If the atonement was an infinite sacrifice because of the immortal and mortal attributes of Jesus Christ, then his infinite sacrifice was also infinite honor. This is why the atonement is key and all else is an appendage. Without the atonement of Jesus Christ, God the Father after a while would cease to be God. Why?
If Lucifer had stopped Jesus Christ, eventually God would have ceased to be God. Mercy would have had to rob justice. God would have had to step in and perform the atonement by canceling out justice and wiping the slate clean. As a result, he would be breaking the Higher Law and would cease to be God. So, only Jesus Christ could have performed the atonement and allow God to stay God. God could not perform the atonement and keep his power. Does this make sense?
Also think about this. What was Jehovah exposed to before his mortal ministry? If you take the scripture first mentioned in this post as a clue you'd say strictly the teachings of Elohim. I believe this is one of the main reasons why he was so valiant in his Earthy ministry and withstood the temptation of Satan. He had pure teachings. Not the teachings of Elohim mingled with the teachings of others.
If you closely study the Fall of Adam and Eve you may get clues as to what Lucifer experienced as well. I believe a lot of knowledge that is sealed speaks more in detail about the War in Heaven, the Fall of Adam and Eve, and the atonement of Jesus Christ. We also need to study the relationship between honor and power.
Lastly, just because things might have been done differently elsewhere, I want you to know that I know that Heavenly Father's plan is the only way that we, His children, can become like him.
I have a strong testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that the work will not be done, even after our World is glorified, that the Great Jehovah will not say the work is done until everything is finished.
Love,
Frothnim
P.S. - I probably did a horrible job laying out my ideas. I wish I could explain things better. I am excited to hear your critiques or support.
Message Edited...Persephone: Please look at how we use the Quote Tags here. When you do not use these tags source material that is not your own may appear to be yours when it is not. See our Constructive Posting Policy.
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Overthrow Attempt Chose Satan Why
Interesting,
Thanks for the post. I am not sure that I agree though. I cannot agree that God had some fallen "family member' that tutored Satan. First, there is no scriptural basis for this. This is something that is not even hinted too. So I must not accept this point simply because of this reason. Besides the logic seems counter to what we know. (What little we do know). If we know that Satan will be in outer darkness, then logic would say any other Satanic beings would ultimately be there as well. So who would be around for him to learn from? I do not think that there was a dark Sith leader to tutor him.
As for the atonement- It is clear you have been influenced by Skousen's work. As I have mentioned in other threads, there are some theological problems with his ideas. With that said, I am unsure how you conclude that "Elohim" would have to atone for the sins of man" if Christ did not, thus ceasing to be God. This seems to contradict Skousen's theory which you expand upon. Skousen would say that God would not atone for the sins of man, because he has to maintain justice, thus the plan of salvation would be not. We would all then be held to the fate of justice. So I am not sure how you change that conclusion.
First off I believe that justice is taken out of context. It metaphoric, and the Hebrew notion of Justice is much different then what you or I think. Especially different then a medieval notion of justice that you and Skousen suggest. It is not just to have another suffer on your behalf for another's' sin. That is not justice especially in a liberal since of justice. (This may work in a utilitarian since of justice, but that is debatable.) With that said I do think Skousen's work is a step in the right direction.
Secondly God would cease to be God because He is Justice. It is not something he possesses, but rather it is what he is. Just like any of his attributes. If he ceased to be just then he would cease to be himself, thus he would not be God. It would be like telling you to stop being you. You would cease to be. This is what Alma is saying that we can be assured that God is Just simply because he exists, not that if he breaks a law he would loose his status. (one of the problems with Skousens' ideas)
Anyway I appreciate your willingness to share your ideas.
Post Date: 14th Jan, 2010 - 12:13am / Post ID: #
Why Satan Chose To Attempt An Overthrow Studies Doctrine Mormon
Hi Isiah53,
I really appreciate your response. I have never read or heard anything from a Skousen so I cannot comment on what Skousen proposed. What I can explain is how I feel.
I don't believe the requirement for the atonement is as eternal as the Priesthood. I think that the requirement for an atonement did not appear until well after the First Gods began to be. And, I do not believe that the First Gods began to be through an atonement of some sort. I believe they started as intelligences and progressed while gaining power to command the elements, with the elements themselves having agency and obeying on their own will. So they very well could have started as Spirits and progressed to Godhood in a different way than you and I will.
I think that the way in which the original Gods began to be caused some logistical issues. Such as ceasing to be God, and other scenarios we can think about (that would contribute to grief and war).
I believe that the atonement and outer darkness and other aspects of law was a fix put into place after the fact. I believe Elohim might have been the first to have held the calling of Savior. Jesus Christ being the second (But it would make better sense that Elohim came up with the plan of having a savior and Jesus Christ is the first one to do it. So Jesus Christ can learn it from Elohim without Elohim ever doing it himself).
This is how Lucifer could have learned from others without the law being broken.
Think of it this way too. Exaltation could have had a lesser and now today higher law. I don't believe the first gods began to be in the same way we will, nor the same way Jesus Christ has.
Does this make sense?
In summary, first gods became gods without a savior. Lucifer knew and saw this. Jesus Christ and the atonement becomes the fix to certain issues. Today, the only way to Exaltation is through the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
EDIT: P.S- I forgot to address one question you had.
QUOTE Skousen would say that God would not atone for the sins of man, because he has to maintain justice, thus the plan of salvation would be not. We would all then be held to the fate of justice. So I am not sure how you change that conclusion.
If you kill the lawmaker the law dies. So God could have rescued us from our accountability but he would have had to give up his own life (completely) to do so. So if Jesus Christ failed the only option that God would have had would be to give up his own life so that we wouldn't have to pay the price. Also, because of Jesus Christ's agency I do believe he had the opportunity to fail. I think that his mission being done in his mortal probation should be held in higher regard for what he actually accomplished.
Edited: Frothnim on 14th Jan, 2010 - 12:23amOverthrow Attempt Chose Satan Why
Frothnim,
I'm going post a few quotes from Cleon Skousen. Although I can't say he is 100% accurate, I do think he gets it closer than most. He will definitely give you somethings to think about, and to pray about their truth. You seem to be on the right track here and there, but I have to agree with Isiah53 when it come to lucifer seeing slave kingdoms,and wanting to duplicate it.Thats a little far fetched for me. Everything inside Gods kingdom is Gods alone. Everything outside Gods kingdom is darkness and chaos.
As far as God becoming God, I think that it says in Abraham, that He was in the midst of all the intelligences,realized He was more intelligent than them all, and began to organise them. I guess that means He's been God ever since then.
Anyways here are some Skousen Quotes from his book Gospel Diamond Dust:
QUOTE All of Us Fall Short of the Glory of God
Once we had gotten into the second estate, we had another problem. It was impossible to live perfectly. Every one of us falls short of the glory of God. Not one of us is able to go through this life perfectly. The scripture references that talk about this are Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8.
We've all sinned and come short of the glory of God -- even the President of the Church, even Jeremiah, John the Baptist, John the Revelator, you and me. None of us are perfect, no matter how hard we try. We all are sinning, you notice, almost continually.
As a matter of fact, that's the way we are learning the difference between good and evil. Did you ever notice that? We are tempted and say, "Hey, that would be fuuunnnn!" When we realize what we've done we come back to God saying, "Oh, I'm so sorry about that." Then we try something else, and we're vacillating back and forth.
In our mature years, one would think that we would be pretty well on target, that we would have learned most of the lessons of life. For those of you who aren't as far down the trail of life as I am, let me tell you, it's a battle right through to the end.
It's interesting how things change as we get older. Many of our offenses are offenses of neglect -- things that are, what we call, not malfeasance, but misfeasance. I think of all the good that I would like to be doing -- that I ought to be doing -- that I am not doing. I've got to repent. I've got to do more genealogy. I do so much for the living that I've neglected the dead. So I've got to get on with that. I've got to do better in that score.
[page 39]
But here we are, you see, going back and forth down the trail of life, always forward but never perfect. Everybody follow that? Never perfect, but always forward. All right, that's one precept.
Once we had gotten into the second estate, we had another problem. It was impossible to live perfectly. Every one of us falls short of the glory of God. Not one of us is able to go through this life perfectly. The scripture references that talk about this are Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8.
We've all sinned and come short of the glory of God -- even the President of the Church, even Jeremiah, John the Baptist, John the Revelator, you and me. None of us are perfect, no matter how hard we try. We all are sinning, you notice, almost continually.
As a matter of fact, that's the way we are learning the difference between good and evil. Did you ever notice that? We are tempted and say, "Hey, that would be fuuunnnn!" When we realize what we've done we come back to God saying, "Oh, I'm so sorry about that." Then we try something else, and we're vacillating back and forth.
In our mature years, one would think that we would be pretty well on target, that we would have learned most of the lessons of life. For those of you who aren't as far down the trail of life as I am, let me tell you, it's a battle right through to the end.
It's interesting how things change as we get older. Many of our offenses are offenses of neglect -- things that are, what we call, not malfeasance, but misfeasance. I think of all the good that I would like to be doing -- that I ought to be doing -- that I am not doing. I've got to repent. I've got to do more genealogy. I do so much for the living that I've neglected the dead. So I've got to get on with that. I've got to do better in that score.
[page 39]
But here we are, you see, going back and forth down the trail of life, always forward but never perfect. Everybody follow that? Never perfect, but always forward. All right, that's one precept.
QUOTE God Set Up the Second Estate so We Could Sin without Immediate Consequences
Here's another precept. Our Heavenly Father tells us, "Where I am, I administer a perfect law. I don't look upon disobedience with the least degree of allowance. It's not that you can't disobey, you can. You just don't stay around very long. On my level I have total, absolute perfection in obedience, and no one is allowed to stay on my level who isn't perfectly obedient." The scripture reference for this precept is D&C 1:31.
I could give you a hundred of those verses -- they're all through the scriptures. God cannot look upon disobedience with the least degree of allowance where he is. That is why it is perfect where he lives. So the second estate had to be a place that was kind of like an incubator where he could put us, his children, in there and let us wander around.
Do you notice that judgment is suspended? You're able to sin, the Book of Mormon says, and then you're given a little while to think about it.3 It's called a time for repentance. Do you remember that principle?
Now that doesn't exist where God is. There isn't any time to repent up there. In the book The First 2,000 Years, I deal with this problem of the time when the principle of repentance disappears.4 This is a very temporary permission to sin and have time to think about it, and turn back without having lightning strike you.
Now where God is, there is no suspended judgment. If you sin there is an immediate response and reaction. "I don't look upon sin," he said, "with the least degree of allowance."
Here's another precept. Our Heavenly Father tells us, "Where I am, I administer a perfect law. I don't look upon disobedience with the least degree of allowance. It's not that you can't disobey, you can. You just don't stay around very long. On my level I have total, absolute perfection in obedience, and no one is allowed to stay on my level who isn't perfectly obedient." The scripture reference for this precept is D&C 1:31.
I could give you a hundred of those verses -- they're all through the scriptures. God cannot look upon disobedience with the least degree of allowance where he is. That is why it is perfect where he lives. So the second estate had to be a place that was kind of like an incubator where he could put us, his children, in there and let us wander around.
Do you notice that judgment is suspended? You're able to sin, the Book of Mormon says, and then you're given a little while to think about it.3 It's called a time for repentance. Do you remember that principle?
Now that doesn't exist where God is. There isn't any time to repent up there. In the book The First 2,000 Years, I deal with this problem of the time when the principle of repentance disappears.4 This is a very temporary permission to sin and have time to think about it, and turn back without having lightning strike you.
Now where God is, there is no suspended judgment. If you sin there is an immediate response and reaction. "I don't look upon sin," he said, "with the least degree of allowance."
QUOTE Heavenly Father Cannot Bring Us Back to His Presence and Remain a God
Now keep these principles in mind. How do you and I go back to the presence of the Father when we have been offenders, when we have been disobedient? How do we get back? The Father said, "I cannot bring you back." This is one of the most important principles of the gospel.
God said, "I couldn't possibly bring you back into my presence, and remain God."
[page 40]
"You mean, Heavenly Father, that you could fall?"
"Of course I could fall!"
"But you're God!"
He said, "Right. You know why I'm God? Because I am perfect in my relationship with all the intelligences of the universe. They trust me. They know I would not be dishonest with them. I would not be discriminatory and say these who sinned could come back up, but these who have sinned cannot come back. I am immaculate. I am perfectly just. If I weren't perfectly just, I would cease to be God. You need to know that. I walk the razor's edge of required discipline where I am."
Where did God tell us this? The references are Alma 42:13, 22, 25 and Mormon 9:19. If the Father sinned or was unjust in allowing sinful people to come into his presence, he said he would cease to be God.
Now, if our Heavenly Father can cease to be God, and we have sinned and he wanted us to come down here to learn the difference between good and evil, what about getting us back to our heavenly home?
The Father said, "I couldn't bring you back. If I tried to do it, I would cease to be God. So there is only one name given under heaven by which you can be brought back, and it's not mine, and it's not yours. It is Jesus Christ. I set him up so he could bring you back. And he's the only one who can bring you back." The reference for this is Acts 4:12. There is only one name given under heaven whereby you can be saved, and that's the name of Jesus Christ; it is not Elohim.
Now keep these principles in mind. How do you and I go back to the presence of the Father when we have been offenders, when we have been disobedient? How do we get back? The Father said, "I cannot bring you back." This is one of the most important principles of the gospel.
God said, "I couldn't possibly bring you back into my presence, and remain God."
[page 40]
"You mean, Heavenly Father, that you could fall?"
"Of course I could fall!"
"But you're God!"
He said, "Right. You know why I'm God? Because I am perfect in my relationship with all the intelligences of the universe. They trust me. They know I would not be dishonest with them. I would not be discriminatory and say these who sinned could come back up, but these who have sinned cannot come back. I am immaculate. I am perfectly just. If I weren't perfectly just, I would cease to be God. You need to know that. I walk the razor's edge of required discipline where I am."
Where did God tell us this? The references are Alma 42:13, 22, 25 and Mormon 9:19. If the Father sinned or was unjust in allowing sinful people to come into his presence, he said he would cease to be God.
Now, if our Heavenly Father can cease to be God, and we have sinned and he wanted us to come down here to learn the difference between good and evil, what about getting us back to our heavenly home?
The Father said, "I couldn't bring you back. If I tried to do it, I would cease to be God. So there is only one name given under heaven by which you can be brought back, and it's not mine, and it's not yours. It is Jesus Christ. I set him up so he could bring you back. And he's the only one who can bring you back." The reference for this is Acts 4:12. There is only one name given under heaven whereby you can be saved, and that's the name of Jesus Christ; it is not Elohim.
QUOTE The Atonement
Now, with those things in mind, you can begin to see the problem of the Atonement. As you remember, when Jesus went into the garden, he fell prone upon the ground and said to his Father, "All things are possible unto thee."5 In other words he was saying, "Father, you're God. Everything is possible unto thee."
He then asked of the Father, "Therefore, take this cup from me. Don't make me do this."6
Jesus later told us about this experience: "Do you want to know how frightened I was? I knew so much about what I was about to go through that it terrified me. I trembled. I didn't want to have to go through with it." This reference is in D&C 19:15-19, where Jesus describes his terror [page 41] and his desire to avoid being sacrificed.
The Building Blocks of the Universe
Now, every once in a while you will hear the prophet of the Lord refer to something profound in priesthood meeting or elsewhere. Because we sometimes get into a sense of non-thinking, our minds tend to slip into neutral.
I've watched my own mind, and I know how your mind works. You sit there in a priesthood meeting, in which there are 200,000 brethren spread out across the face of the earth, listening to a prophet speak. It's very easy to have him drop one of those pearls. In our sense of "meeting stupor," as I call it sometimes, people go to meetings to endure to the end.
But once in a while, a meeting will be so exciting and so stimulating that you're not just enduring -- you're not just sitting there in intellectual neutral -- but you actually have a desire to get every little ounce out of this. Converts to the Church maintain this enthusiasm longer than those who were born into the Church. That's one of the great blessings of being born outside the Church. They come in awake. They're challenged; whereas some of the rest of us take it for granted.
So, with reference to the great building blocks of the universe, President Kimball dropped a pearl in General Priesthood Meeting on April 2, 1977. He referred to the capacity of the priesthood to command the intelligences in the universe some day and have them obey us as they do God.
I bet that went right over the heads of 99.99% of the priesthood brethren. They weren't excited about it; it didn't mean anything to them. The only reason that it meant anything to me, I think, was because I had a mission president who was an Apostle -- John A. Widtsoe -- who encouraged me to think about this when I was seventeen years old.
I went to him one day and asked him why the Atonement was necessary. He told me where I could find a lot of scriptures that would tell me about the building blocks of the universe, and how God acquires his power and develops his capacity to organize things. When I started learning these things, a whole new vista of "priesthood God-science" opened up to my mind.
People will sometimes say, "Well, why don't the Brethren talk about these things more?" They do more than one would think. Here was President Kimball dropping this pearl, and it went right over the heads of everyone. So these pearls do get dropped once in a while, you just [page 42] have to pay attention to them.
Now, with those things in mind, you can begin to see the problem of the Atonement. As you remember, when Jesus went into the garden, he fell prone upon the ground and said to his Father, "All things are possible unto thee."5 In other words he was saying, "Father, you're God. Everything is possible unto thee."
He then asked of the Father, "Therefore, take this cup from me. Don't make me do this."6
Jesus later told us about this experience: "Do you want to know how frightened I was? I knew so much about what I was about to go through that it terrified me. I trembled. I didn't want to have to go through with it." This reference is in D&C 19:15-19, where Jesus describes his terror [page 41] and his desire to avoid being sacrificed.
The Building Blocks of the Universe
Now, every once in a while you will hear the prophet of the Lord refer to something profound in priesthood meeting or elsewhere. Because we sometimes get into a sense of non-thinking, our minds tend to slip into neutral.
I've watched my own mind, and I know how your mind works. You sit there in a priesthood meeting, in which there are 200,000 brethren spread out across the face of the earth, listening to a prophet speak. It's very easy to have him drop one of those pearls. In our sense of "meeting stupor," as I call it sometimes, people go to meetings to endure to the end.
But once in a while, a meeting will be so exciting and so stimulating that you're not just enduring -- you're not just sitting there in intellectual neutral -- but you actually have a desire to get every little ounce out of this. Converts to the Church maintain this enthusiasm longer than those who were born into the Church. That's one of the great blessings of being born outside the Church. They come in awake. They're challenged; whereas some of the rest of us take it for granted.
So, with reference to the great building blocks of the universe, President Kimball dropped a pearl in General Priesthood Meeting on April 2, 1977. He referred to the capacity of the priesthood to command the intelligences in the universe some day and have them obey us as they do God.
I bet that went right over the heads of 99.99% of the priesthood brethren. They weren't excited about it; it didn't mean anything to them. The only reason that it meant anything to me, I think, was because I had a mission president who was an Apostle -- John A. Widtsoe -- who encouraged me to think about this when I was seventeen years old.
I went to him one day and asked him why the Atonement was necessary. He told me where I could find a lot of scriptures that would tell me about the building blocks of the universe, and how God acquires his power and develops his capacity to organize things. When I started learning these things, a whole new vista of "priesthood God-science" opened up to my mind.
People will sometimes say, "Well, why don't the Brethren talk about these things more?" They do more than one would think. Here was President Kimball dropping this pearl, and it went right over the heads of everyone. So these pearls do get dropped once in a while, you just [page 42] have to pay attention to them.
Overthrow Attempt Chose Satan Why
Continued:
QUOTE John A. Widtsoe's Challenge
It's a great blessing to have great leaders who will stimulate our minds and our spirits and get us thinking in the right direction. While on my mission, I described to Brother Widtsoe my feelings as a boy growing up in Canada in the Second Ward listening to the stories about the crucifixion of Christ. How terribly he suffered! There's no doubt in my mind that he suffered. And I felt it as a little boy -- that crown of thorns on his head, and those nails. I just cringed to think about it.
But my question was, "Why? What good does it do to have Jesus hanging on that cross, bleeding, suffering and crying out in pain? Who wanted that? Why was it necessary? What did it accomplish? How did it accomplish it?"
When I asked Brother Widtsoe, he said, "Elder Skousen, who asked you to ask me these questions?"
I said, "Oh, well, nobody. They're my own questions."
"All right," he said, "now that these are your questions, maybe you'll be able to hear the answer. Because until a person asks a question, he can't hear the answer. I'll get you started on your search for an answer. First of all, you need to know about the two basic things from which everything in the universe is created. They are all created out of just two things."
I said, "Good. What's the chapter and verse?"
"Oh," he said, "I'm not going to give you the chapter and verse! I want you to have the thrill of discovering it. I'll just tell you which part of the Book of Mormon it's in, which part of the Doctrine and Covenants it's in, and then you go look for it. I'll tell you what it says, and you go look for it."
You know, it took me seven years to put this all together! I'm giving you the references so that you can save a little time on the project.
It's a great blessing to have great leaders who will stimulate our minds and our spirits and get us thinking in the right direction. While on my mission, I described to Brother Widtsoe my feelings as a boy growing up in Canada in the Second Ward listening to the stories about the crucifixion of Christ. How terribly he suffered! There's no doubt in my mind that he suffered. And I felt it as a little boy -- that crown of thorns on his head, and those nails. I just cringed to think about it.
But my question was, "Why? What good does it do to have Jesus hanging on that cross, bleeding, suffering and crying out in pain? Who wanted that? Why was it necessary? What did it accomplish? How did it accomplish it?"
When I asked Brother Widtsoe, he said, "Elder Skousen, who asked you to ask me these questions?"
I said, "Oh, well, nobody. They're my own questions."
"All right," he said, "now that these are your questions, maybe you'll be able to hear the answer. Because until a person asks a question, he can't hear the answer. I'll get you started on your search for an answer. First of all, you need to know about the two basic things from which everything in the universe is created. They are all created out of just two things."
I said, "Good. What's the chapter and verse?"
"Oh," he said, "I'm not going to give you the chapter and verse! I want you to have the thrill of discovering it. I'll just tell you which part of the Book of Mormon it's in, which part of the Doctrine and Covenants it's in, and then you go look for it. I'll tell you what it says, and you go look for it."
You know, it took me seven years to put this all together! I'm giving you the references so that you can save a little time on the project.
QUOTE The Universe Is Made of Two Ingredients
The first reference explains that the universe is made of two ingredients, and that is in 2 Nephi 2:14.
The first ingredient is called "the thing which acts." The other is called "the thing which is acted upon." Father Lehi was on his deathbed when he explained this principle to his sons. He said, "You should know that everything in existence was created out of that which acts and that [page 43] which is acted upon. These are the two building blocks."
The second reference is in D&C 93:30, which says that the thing which acts is called "intelligence."
We also learn that intelligence is eternal. It is as old as God is. Each little intelligence is as eternal as God. It has always existed. You can't destroy it and you can't create it. You can organize it and disorganize it, but you can't destroy it. It's eternal and it acts independently. This is found in D&C 93:29-30.
Now, what do you think an intelligence looks like? Does that bother you? Some of these are questions that don't bother some people at all. They enjoy a good life, and they do a lot of good in the world -- no problem. Your salvation doesn't depend on knowing this.
But if you were really anxious to know more about your Heavenly Father, and to know more about the plan of salvation, and not just sit there and mechanically partake of the sacrament each Sunday, then these are the questions that move us. This is what Paul said, "You shouldn't just be fed with the milk forever. Faith, repentance and baptism are fine, but you ought to learn a little bit more about the gospel,"7 and this is part of it.
The first reference explains that the universe is made of two ingredients, and that is in 2 Nephi 2:14.
The first ingredient is called "the thing which acts." The other is called "the thing which is acted upon." Father Lehi was on his deathbed when he explained this principle to his sons. He said, "You should know that everything in existence was created out of that which acts and that [page 43] which is acted upon. These are the two building blocks."
The second reference is in D&C 93:30, which says that the thing which acts is called "intelligence."
We also learn that intelligence is eternal. It is as old as God is. Each little intelligence is as eternal as God. It has always existed. You can't destroy it and you can't create it. You can organize it and disorganize it, but you can't destroy it. It's eternal and it acts independently. This is found in D&C 93:29-30.
Now, what do you think an intelligence looks like? Does that bother you? Some of these are questions that don't bother some people at all. They enjoy a good life, and they do a lot of good in the world -- no problem. Your salvation doesn't depend on knowing this.
But if you were really anxious to know more about your Heavenly Father, and to know more about the plan of salvation, and not just sit there and mechanically partake of the sacrament each Sunday, then these are the questions that move us. This is what Paul said, "You shouldn't just be fed with the milk forever. Faith, repentance and baptism are fine, but you ought to learn a little bit more about the gospel,"7 and this is part of it.
QUOTE What is an Intelligence?
All right, what is an intelligence? An intelligence can best be understood by looking within yourself -- you are one of them. Inside of you, somewhere, there's an intelligence, and that is what is interpreting what is coming in through that ear, and that is what learns two times two equals four. That is your intelligence. That's the little "I am" in you.
In some of you it's a little more awake than in others. Some of you are awake to symphony music, while others are not. Some of you are awake to higher mathematics, while some of the rest of us are not. Some are very much awake and alert to principles of good administration and government, but to others that's just not that important. Others are very alert about how you bring green things up out of the ground and make them grow, while others take them for granted. They sniff the flowers, eat the wheat, and they're glad somebody got them there. These little intelligences in us are alert to different things.
However, I want to remind you of something. Do you see my hand? That can be cut off. My arm can be cut off without affecting me, because that's not me. That's not my "I am." It's mine, but it's not me. Do you [page 44] follow that?
So where is the little "I am" located? Well, if you will shut your eyes and touch your chin, you'll notice that your chin is down below where "I am" is. If you put your hand on top of your head, you'll notice that's above where "I am" is. Take a hold of your left ear, and that's a little outside of where "I am" is.
"I am" is way back there in the seat of government that has a massive computerized system called the brain, a massive system of communications called the nervous system, a massive system of leverage called muscles and nerves, all held together with a skeletal frame work.
Those are all mine, but they are not me. You can leave this whole body, because it's a tabernacle created by God. It's mine, but it isn't me. You can take away the spirit body -- that's mine, but it isn't me. But then you would get to see who this "I am" is. It's a little scintillating intelligence sending out signals that is self-knowing, self-existent and eternal. That's you.
Everything that I'm looking at, which I define as "you" by name, is your property, your stewardship, your tabernacle. I can't see you, and you can't see me. It's way back in there, and it's running this organization.
All right, what is an intelligence? An intelligence can best be understood by looking within yourself -- you are one of them. Inside of you, somewhere, there's an intelligence, and that is what is interpreting what is coming in through that ear, and that is what learns two times two equals four. That is your intelligence. That's the little "I am" in you.
In some of you it's a little more awake than in others. Some of you are awake to symphony music, while others are not. Some of you are awake to higher mathematics, while some of the rest of us are not. Some are very much awake and alert to principles of good administration and government, but to others that's just not that important. Others are very alert about how you bring green things up out of the ground and make them grow, while others take them for granted. They sniff the flowers, eat the wheat, and they're glad somebody got them there. These little intelligences in us are alert to different things.
However, I want to remind you of something. Do you see my hand? That can be cut off. My arm can be cut off without affecting me, because that's not me. That's not my "I am." It's mine, but it's not me. Do you [page 44] follow that?
So where is the little "I am" located? Well, if you will shut your eyes and touch your chin, you'll notice that your chin is down below where "I am" is. If you put your hand on top of your head, you'll notice that's above where "I am" is. Take a hold of your left ear, and that's a little outside of where "I am" is.
"I am" is way back there in the seat of government that has a massive computerized system called the brain, a massive system of communications called the nervous system, a massive system of leverage called muscles and nerves, all held together with a skeletal frame work.
Those are all mine, but they are not me. You can leave this whole body, because it's a tabernacle created by God. It's mine, but it isn't me. You can take away the spirit body -- that's mine, but it isn't me. But then you would get to see who this "I am" is. It's a little scintillating intelligence sending out signals that is self-knowing, self-existent and eternal. That's you.
Everything that I'm looking at, which I define as "you" by name, is your property, your stewardship, your tabernacle. I can't see you, and you can't see me. It's way back in there, and it's running this organization.
QUOTE We All Are Very Precious to Heavenly Father
Once you begin to understand this -- the complexity and the beauty, the magnificence of a human being -- you'll understand why our Heavenly Father is constantly stressing how precious we are.
"I took you as a tiny intelligence out of the unorganized intelligences. I trained you and I tested you. You were so sleepy when I first got a hold of you. We had a hard time waking you up. You kind of knew things were going on, but I had to alert you and get you going.
"Then I tested you, and I gave you a certain amount of time to get going. Some of you I locked in on the elemental level. Some I let come up as high as the plant level. Others were smart enough to come up to the animal level. But the brilliant ones I gave spirit bodies in my image. I tell you that every one is mighty precious to me -- red, white, black or yellow -- they're all very precious to me. These are my super-intelligences."
This was taught in Abraham 3:19-23, that all these intelligences have been graded. In other words, there's intelligence in everything. There's intelligence in dirt -- every little atom, every little electron. These are all [page 45] loaded with millions of little intelligences that have been organized.
They are on different levels. There are intelligences that he assigns to be in the dirt and the rocks and the water. Then there are intelligences on a higher level in plants. There is another, higher level in animals. And there is the highest level in mankind. Then, of course, God said, "I am more intelligent than they all."8
You'll notice in Abraham that God is talking about levels of spirit organizations. But then he says, "I'm really talking about organized intelligences."9 We were given all of that knowledge in the Book of Abraham.
Once you begin to understand this -- the complexity and the beauty, the magnificence of a human being -- you'll understand why our Heavenly Father is constantly stressing how precious we are.
"I took you as a tiny intelligence out of the unorganized intelligences. I trained you and I tested you. You were so sleepy when I first got a hold of you. We had a hard time waking you up. You kind of knew things were going on, but I had to alert you and get you going.
"Then I tested you, and I gave you a certain amount of time to get going. Some of you I locked in on the elemental level. Some I let come up as high as the plant level. Others were smart enough to come up to the animal level. But the brilliant ones I gave spirit bodies in my image. I tell you that every one is mighty precious to me -- red, white, black or yellow -- they're all very precious to me. These are my super-intelligences."
This was taught in Abraham 3:19-23, that all these intelligences have been graded. In other words, there's intelligence in everything. There's intelligence in dirt -- every little atom, every little electron. These are all [page 45] loaded with millions of little intelligences that have been organized.
They are on different levels. There are intelligences that he assigns to be in the dirt and the rocks and the water. Then there are intelligences on a higher level in plants. There is another, higher level in animals. And there is the highest level in mankind. Then, of course, God said, "I am more intelligent than they all."8
You'll notice in Abraham that God is talking about levels of spirit organizations. But then he says, "I'm really talking about organized intelligences."9 We were given all of that knowledge in the Book of Abraham.
Post Date: 15th Jan, 2010 - 2:38am / Post ID: #
Why Satan Chose To Attempt An Overthrow
That seems in line with what I am thinking. There is nothing there that contradicts what I am proposing. In fact, it makes a lot of sense for a Post Grand Council View. What I am saying is that there was a difference between Pre Grand Council and Post Grand Council.
What I mentioned before was that the first Gods did not become God through a Savior. But we will. That is a huge difference right there. (But that is not to say one is wrong and the other is right. I know that the system we currently have is the best)
The next time you attend an Endowment Session think about every word that is said and ask yourself what does it mean and why is it said. I wish I could point it out to you, but to do that I'd have to be in the temple with you.
While a lot of things are eternal, there are some things that have seasons. Of course, if you believe every law always existed and is eternal than you can easily reject what I am saying. I believe certain things are eternal and other things are not.
Some people cannot explain how Lucifer fell. How his ideas crept into his mind, especially since he was in an environment far better than anything we could experience on Earth where no evil existed. Some people say that if an opposition must exist then God created it. But I am telling you this is not the case. That God was not responsible for making Lucifer who he became.
A wayward son lives in a righteous household. Everything around him is proper and he behaves himself like his other siblings within his home, but when he leaves his home he makes very destructive decisions. What he does outside the home would never be taught in his home and if he never left his home he would never know about or participate in those other things. This is a very black and white way of looking at it. If Lucifer didn't learn how to be what he became in the presence of Elohim, where and how did he learn it?
This is why I am saying that at some point in time there was a change in the way things were done. Again, focus on the Endowment Ceremony.
A Frothnim Pre Grand Council View and a Skousen Post Grand Council View can go hand in hand and not contradict, with the latter fulfilling the former.
Why Satan Chose Attempt Overthrow
Frothnim said
QUOTE The next time you attend an Endowment Session think about every word that is said and ask yourself what does it mean and why is it said. I wish I could point it out to you, but to do that I'd have to be in the temple with you.
I'm pretty sure I know which part of the Endowment you are talking about.
I've often wonder about that,also, but I haven't come to the same conclusions as you. I guess now I'll have to actually pray about it in the Temple.
The Endowment aside, based on the scriptures you've already given, its clear that Lucifer saw something done before. What that is I'm not sure. It could just be, someone playing the role of tempter, on other worlds. I don't think that anyone has succeeded in what satan proposed. Where I think you are right is that, he saw something else working. Like all the animals (beast) returning, and would apply that thinking to humans (gods). But ,then we wouldn't know good from evil, and we wouldn't be gods. But, we would be his subjects, and he would dethrone God. It's clear that, that has never happened before, or there would be someone else sitting on Gods throne.
MARK1616
TOPIC: Why Satan Chose To Attempt An Overthrow