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QUOTE 2. What about glaring logic being in - Page 15 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 7th Aug, 2008 - 2:19am
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Are Mormons meant to follow blindly? We may say no, but if you disagree what do you do? Pray UNTIL you believe? Should we believe that all that is written and said by the Modern Prophets is correct and infallible? If so, then why do we have to pray about it? Is it for us to believe what they say or really to find out if that is what we ought to be doing? Controversial Mormon Issue.
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The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? - Page 15
Maybe someone else may come along and share it in a different way with you so that you can get the deeper meaning of what has been presented in this Thread, and what you are answering in response to the Thread, otherwise I'll just keep repeating myself and that will not be constructive. Perhaps if you go to the Thread I linked to before you may see it (the one about Plural Marriage).
The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? (Hover)
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| QUOTE (alskann @ 9-Jun 08, 10:20 PM) |
| He won't lead us astray, not because he is infallible, but because IF we are spiritually in tune and living close to the Lord the Holy Spirit will give us a heads up before it gets that far. If, per chance, a prophet should for whatever reason fall we "could" be led astray quite easily if we are not used to listening to the promptings of the Spirit. |
Oh, I see what you are saying. I found some interesting quotes by Elder James E. Faust from:
https://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgne...0004d82620a____
| QUOTE |
| How, then, one might ask, can we be so sure that, as promised, the prophets, seers, and revelators will never lead the people astray? (see Joseph Fielding Smith, in Conference Report, Apr. 1972, 99; or Ensign, July 1972, 88). One answer is contained in the grand principle found in the 107th section of the Doctrine and Covenants: "And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same. "¦ "The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity; "Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord" (D&C 107:27, 30-31). The requirement of unanimity provides a check on bias and personal idiosyncrasies. It ensures that God rules through the Spirit, not man through majority or compromise. It ensures that the best wisdom and experience are focused on an issue before the deep, unassailable impressions of revealed direction are received. It guards against the foibles of man. |
So is he saying that the Prophet is not infallible but the Quorum as a GROUP is or is near-infallible?
| QUOTE |
| The responsibility for determining the divine validity of that which one of the oracles of God may state does not rest solely upon him. President J. Reuben Clark, formerly a member of the First Presidency, stated, "We can tell when the speakers are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" only when we, ourselves, are "moved upon by the Holy Ghost" " (J. Reuben Clark: Selected Papers, ed. David H. Yarn Jr. [1984], 95-96). This is in harmony with the counsel of President Brigham Young: "I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not" (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 135). |
Woah, so the Prophet CAN lead us astray and we can find out for ourselves IF he is leading us in the right direction. Great now my question is: How realistic is this statement for the modern Church? Do the Church leaders really expect us to do what Pres. Faust quoted from Pres. Young? What can happen to a member who says that prayed about a certain revelation and don't believe what the Prophet said is truthful? If the doctrine or revelation is big enough, he/she may face disciplinary council. That's a fact. So I truly do not get what Pres. Faust is trying to say, for one hand he says that Prophets are not infallible neither the General Authorities as individuals yet he hints the Quorum as a GROUP is.
Thoughts? 
The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon
LDS_Forever:
| QUOTE |
| So is he saying that the Prophet is not infallible but the Quorum as a GROUP is or is near-infallible? |
I think he is saying any man (or woman) acting alone is not infallible, but acting as a group in righteousness you have enough checks and balances to certainly lower the odds. If one man dissented in a decision they would have a group discussion and work it out until it was resolved. Through this process if the dissenter was on the wrong path I believe it would soon be discovered and resolved one way or another.
President Faust is saying that members should not just follow blindly. Just following in faith is not enough. We must know for ourselves through our own study and prayer. I also think that he is telling us we should be praying to know whether or not our leaders (Prophet included) are "walking in the path the Lord dictates" or not. It may not be necessary to pray about the specific revelation once we have confirmed it comes from the Lord. Once we have received this confirmation that it is from the Lord, if still unsettled about following, we can then pray for the ability to follow.
However, it is an on-going process. If we received confirmation today of the righteousness of our leaders, who is to say it is still on track next year or ten years from now. This is more germane to our local leaders as they are more prone to fallibility than the prophet but we still need to reconfirm periodically regardless. If we continue to study and progress then we should know.
At least that is my take on it. The ultimate litmus test is a confirmation of the Spirit.
Edited: alskann on 11th Jun, 2008 - 2:08amPage 15 Enough That So Prophet Mormon The
This month's First Presidency message is relevant to this topic. It was written by Pres. Eyring. ( Henry B. Eyring, "Safety in Counsel," Liahona, Jun 2008, 2-7 ) The entire article is worth the read, but I wanted to point out a couple of statements he made that were interesting and worth thinking about.
| QUOTE |
| Looking for the path to safety in the counsel of prophets makes sense to those with strong faith. When a prophet speaks, those with little faith may think that they hear only a wise man giving good advice. Then if his counsel seems comfortable and reasonable, squaring with what they want to do, they take it. If it does not, they either consider it faulty advice or they see their circumstances as justifying their being an exception to the counsel. Those without faith may think that they hear only men seeking to exert influence for some selfish motive. |
| QUOTE |
| Another fallacy is to believe that the choice to accept or not accept the counsel of prophets is no more than deciding whether to accept good advice and gain its benefits or to stay where we are. But the choice not to take prophetic counsel changes the very ground upon which we stand. That ground becomes more dangerous. The failure to take prophetic counsel lessens our power to take inspired counsel in the future. The best time to have decided to help Noah build the ark was the first time he asked. Each time he asked after that, each failure to respond would have lessened sensitivity to the Spirit. And so each time his request would have seemed more foolish, until the rain came. And then it was too late. |
| QUOTE |
| Sometimes we will receive counsel that we cannot understand or that seems not to apply to us, even after careful prayer and thought. Don't discard the counsel, but hold it close. If someone you trusted handed you what appeared to be nothing more than sand with the promise that it contained gold, you might wisely hold it in your hand awhile, shaking it gently. Every time I have done that with counsel from a prophet, after a time the gold flakes have begun to appear, and I have been grateful. |
Seems he is telling us that even if we do not agree what the Prophet tells us to do, we should follow anyway and in time we will be rewarded with blessings and understanding.
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Alskann:
| QUOTE |
| Seems he is telling us that even if we do not agree what the Prophet tells us to do, we should follow anyway and in time we will be rewarded with blessings and understanding. |
Hmmm not sure if he says that BUT we need to be very careful. It all depends on the kind of counsel he is giving, hence prayer is such a crucial part of all and obtaining our own confirmation on the matter.
The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?
I wonder: if we disagree with Prophetic counsel, is it ever appropriate to publicly fight that counsel if it is given at the pulpit or done in the name of the Lord? Sure I may disagree with the Lord's anointed, but should I publicly say that my revelation that I supposedly received for the Church, that contradicts the words of the Prophet, is more valid then the Prophets'. I do not hold to keys that would allow me to receive revelation outside of my stewardship. Personal revelation is just that, personal. Prophetic revelation is meant to be a rudder for the church , but it is up to us to follow that counsel or not. I believe that we should take the council, to pray for understanding, and try work our disagreements out with God,and not infront of man.
Personally, I put my faith in Christ, but the fact is that He has and does communicate his will throughout human history through Prophets, regardless of our opinions of his methods. I am not saying I have faith in a man, but I do have faith in a process set up by God. When there are true Prophets, called of God, and the people accept and follow their teachings then the Lord always blesses that people. Conversely, when people mock the words of the Prophet, and stone the Prophets (both figerativly and literally) then that people, as a group, are ripe for destruction. We should determine between ourselves and God if Prophets can be found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints or some other place and act accordingly.
Could we end up like to handful of apostles in the early days of this Church who went apostate, because they allowed personal disagreement to make them bitter to the Lord's chosen mouth piece. In my opinion if we disagree with the Prophet it is appropriate to work that out between the Lord and ourselves, and utterly inappropriate to do so with fellow members of the church.
The Mormon Prophet So That Enough - Page 15
Dbackers, there is nothing to disagree with what you have said, however I will give you a challenge, or maybe it is not a challenge but just merely a question.
1. What will you do if personal revelation is a barrier to what the Prophet has said?
2. What about glaring logic being in opposition to what the Prophet has said, what will you do?
The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 15
| QUOTE |
2. What about glaring logic being in opposition to what the Prophet has said, what will you do? |
Such logical leaps as if the Prophet said that their would be a flood that covers the entire earth, or that their would be three days of light after a certain person's birth, or that Polygamy was to be reinstated in the age of enlightenment and scientific progress.
Sure It would be hard to follow illogical counsel, but their has been plenty of illogical counsel in the scriptures and in prophetic counsel. Counsel from the Lord, if it is from the Lord may occasionally be illogical when we consider the Lord's ways are not our ways.
| QUOTE |
1. What will you do if personal revelation is a barrier to what the Prophet has said? |
I would think that there was something in my life that needed correcting, before I thought that my perception of Church Doctrine was more accurate then the Prophets. And I am sure that if I ultimately thought I was more right then the Prophet, then I am not sure I would like who I had become. Even if I thought I was right based on personal revelation, I would hope that I would not think I had license to teach such doctrine as applicable to the entire Church. I am a firm believer in order in all things, and the Lord as appointed a Prophet in our day.
The Church does not work by voting, but we can sustain the Prophet or choose not to follow him. It is ultimately between the Lord and ourselves if we do that.
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