Related Information to The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? - Page 17

I asked my wife to read through the last four posts, as she is very supportive of my ideas on this.

She pointed out that I keep forgetting to mention one very important point.

A few years ago, we were present for the formation of the Duluth Minnesota Stake out of the Duluth District. Neither of us can remember who it was that organized the stake, but it was either an Apostle or a Seventy. Anyway, he told everyone specifically to go home and pray about the changes as we were NOT obliged to accept them just based upon his words. He explained that we are responsible to verify the teachings and actions of the Brethren.

I think that this might have been the point where I really began to think about these types of things.

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I think most about it when:

1. The clause in D&C about the First Presidency on trial. If the Prophet will not make mistakes then why would he need to be tried.

2. Why we are told to PRAY about it but if we come to disagree then we are told we are in the wrong or unworthy or pray harder

3. Why the Prophet tells us local leaders will never lead us astray when Bishops commit abuse, fornicate and all manner of evil

4. Why people are chosen when you can clearly see it is a "who you know" or "how much you have" and not the spirituality. Why aren't mechanics and humble people called, why are they all the rich and affluent

5. Why did Joseph say the endowment changes would be the start of Apostasy in the Church yet the same Church changes the endowment every decade.

6. Why is the Second Endowment left up to people who 'think' they know someone who deserves it - who are they to say who should get it or not?

7. The Prophet, especially Hinckley at the time made several statements to the world about Doctrine we don't teach when they are right in our manuals

8. Why the Church tries to hide what is not in favor with modern Doctrine. For instance it prints from the Journal of Discourses in MANY of the literature of the CHurch but at the same time says it is not Doctrinal

These things to not add up. In addition to that I have concerns about:

9. Joseph's practice of plural marriage BEFORE anyone in the Church sanctioned it as we do other Doctrines (it was kept secret for nine years)

10. Why if it is doctrinal (Plural marriage) the Brethren say it is not even though many of the earlier Brethren practiced even after the Manifesto.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon

As I was researching about the whole concept of prophets not able "to lead us astray", it seems like it started with Brigham Young when he said:

But then he said:

Also, I was reading a very interesting article online where the author was saying a couple of interesting things:

1. The whole infallibility doctrine gives the people a false sense of security that all is well in Zion, encourages people to serve the Church rather than Christ, and the Church becomes the "idol" of worship. It also encourages to trust in the arm of the flesh rather than Him as He declared in the scriptures.

2. The reason the Church does not use the word "infallibility" is because they will put us in the same level as the Catholics, a Church under Apostasy.

3. It is a very dangerous doctrine that can lead leaders to claim policies as doctrine without fear of reprisal.

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The Church being an idol of worship is an excellent sentiment to what I have been saying elsewhere in many Threads about being 'called' to serve and true honest heart felt service without a title. The Church as I understand it is a preparation, a school - it is NOT the means for employment and dwelling.

Concerning the other quotes there will be an easy answer 'they' will give you for that - you are quoting from the Journal of Discourses, which is NOT doctrinal - and thus we continue wondering.

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The following snippet says it all to me.

That duty includes the responsibility of receiving our own revelation concerning our own paths, the truthfulness of what the Prophet and other leaders say, and of exactly what is true and what is not. That duty also includes our responsibility to actually follow what we learn from our own revelation, even if it goes against what the Prophet or anyone else says.

The "leaders" of the Mormon Fundamentalist movement, those men who claim to have been charged by John Taylor to keep the higher laws alive, are one good example of this. Up until the time of Heber J. Grant, they were considered active, good members of the Church. They had received revelation, and they were determined to live up to it. They continued to live up to it, even with the destruction of all that they loved as they were excommunicated and hounded out of the Church and society.

Now, if we are really interested in this particular matter, then we would each have to get an answer for ourselves as to the validity of their revelations. I certainly am not smart enough to know the answers there. I think they were right, but don't know. I haven't yet sought out that particular answer.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?

The more I research the more I see that as Patriarchs of the home you really have to apply the Gospel to your home and not apply the Church to your home. Yes there is a big difference. The Church has a structured, policy type admonishment policy which may help some get started, but it is by no means an answer to many of the modern-day problems. I think this is why there are so many rebel youths of today within the Church and LDS families, because they are being taught that we must do this or that because the Prophet says so or the manual says so and not because they feel the love of Jesus Christ in their hearts and naturally want to do these things. For instance Family Home Evening should be a natural occurrence. Maybe for some families the admonition of meeting on Mondays is a chore and comes with complaints, but if you have passed that stage then discussing family issues and the Gospel as a unit does not need to be so structured with a manual and a day of the week because family members love each other and want to be together without waiting for the Church to say they should. In other words there is so much emphasis on we meet on Mondays and less on do we even get along and if not then why not? Maybe playing a game with your child will build a relationship more than reading the FHE manual on a particular day. My point is that as Patriarchs we have a right to the Spirit and thus a right to revelation of what we must do for the betterment of ourselves and our family NO ONE ELSE can do that for you although you Bishop may claim to or your Stake President or your Home Teacher, etc. This was most well thought in the Old Testament and Book of Mormon. However, today it seems that the Membership has grown into seeing what the Church says first about their own family - that is actually kind of sad.

Now this is ground that unless I were visited by Him with instructions I do not think I will cross. For now I will listen, watch and pray, I have not reached the point of saying I disagree, but I do question intentions and directions. The main problem right now in the Church is dissecting policy with Doctrine and Command. The Church has meshed them together so well that it is very hard to tell sometimes what is actually scripture and just an idea from a GA or Bishop. For instance you may believe we need to live a Plural Marriage as Joseph taught, but I'm still at the stage of wondering why it was even introduced because of the way it was brought about and the way it was 'finished' since the whole process can only be given THROUGH the Church anyway. Its like saying... I want my drivers license and I feel I must have one, but you cannot create your own on the computer, you are still dependent on that same agency to issue it to you whether you like how that agency is managed or not.

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough - Page 17

Here is a quote that someone on a mailing list uses for his signature.

It seems to sum up the attitude that I see in the Church today.

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 17

In this discussion we seem to be ignoring the fact that God does in fact speak through prophets. We accept the words in the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants to be the word of God, without questioning the fact that these too were written by men who are as flawed as our Apostles and Prophets are today. Most would not question the words of Peter or Paul (if they were translated correctly) except to verify their veracity. Once verified the Bible is the Guide book to us all, and clarified through the Holy Ghost. The only way we would hold modern Prophets and Apostles words to a different Standard if we believe that they are apostate.

I do not accept the theory that God reveals his words independently of the scripture and Prophets without a specific need, outside of the intsrument of the Prophets and the Scriptures. We can receive clarification, confirmation, or in specific instances inpiration as pertaining to our own salvation, but we are still dependant on Prophetic word for guidance especially when we are responsible for others. (This does not negate the importance of receiving revelation for ourselves and for those we have a stewardship over, namely our families).

I believe we are dependent on Prophets past and present at least for guidance and direction for our own lives. If we dismiss them and the Scriptures, without verifying their words, I cannot see how we can please God anymore then Biblical and Book of Mormon peoples did who ignored Prophetic Council in their day.

I believe Prophets must be part of the true church, and man is not leaning on the arm of flesh when he listens to their words any more then the Israelites were leaning on the arm of flesh when they put lambs blood on their door or when they looked on the Serpent to be healed.

We are not leaning on the arm of flesh when we accept Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the restoration, Elijah as the Prophet of the power of sealing or Abraham as the prophet of many nations. So, if a Prophet is speaking for God and by is doing so by the power of the Holy Ghost, It is hard for me to dismiss obedience to those words, just because of a fear of blindly following a Prophet.

This is just my own thoughts on the subject, but I am always open for further instruction or ideas.