Related Information to The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? - Page 18

I agree with most of the things you said, however I think this part is the key of it all and it seems we were not able to find an answer yet. When does the Prophet speaks for God and when does he speak his opinion? Will the obedience that you speak change for you if you know he is just speaking his mind and NOT for God?

The Church as an example, quotes a lot from the Journal of Discourses the words of Brigham Young who was a Prophet but as soon as someone quotes something that is controversial, the Church has no problem in stating that he probably was just sharing his "opinion".

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My problem is when a living Prophet contradicts one of the former Prophets. Brigham Young clearly taught the Adam-God Doctrine, as did all of the other Prophets up through Joseph F. Smith. Spencer W. Kimball taught that it was a false doctrine.

Joseph Smith taught Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, John Taylor, Parley P. Pratt, Lorenzo Snow, and Wilford Woodruff, along with almost all of the other Apostles of those days. They taught certain things about the endowment, about plural marriage, about our place in things, and about the purpose of the church, all of which more current prophets have contradicted and/or declared false.

The real concern is that we are expected to "follow the Prophet" at all times, no matter what. Everyone quotes the apocryphal statements about how a Prophet won't be allowed to lead the Church astray, and that we are safe because if we obey the Prophets and they are wrong, we won't be held accountable. However, that is in direct opposition to the Bible as well as to the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Heber C. Kimball. We WILL be held accountable if we follow "the arm of flesh" and fail to live up to eternal truths. We are accountable for ourselves. Perhaps we won't be "punished" if we follow the Prophet wrongly, but we certainly will fail to receive the blessings that we would have otherwise.

In fact, if we follow the Prophet, we are stunting our own spiritual growth, and denying ourselves the blessings anyway. We are meant to be independent spirits, seeking for light and knowledge on our own. How many times have you heard, or even said yourself, "I will wait for the Prophet to take a lead," or, "I hope the Brethren do something about that"? Oh we all feel comfortable going to the cannery, or helping someone move, or work on organized service projects. Meanwhile, the Salvation Army has a soup kitchen in Ogden, UT, because no Mormons will do such a thing. Instead, we give out food at the Bishop's Storehouse to the homeless and destitute. I wonder how they are going to cook those wonderful staples into solid, nutritious meals if they are homeless and living on the streets.

I am perfectly comfortable with people receiving revelation outside of the the "channels" of the Church. And I don't mean inspiration. I mean full-fledged visions, visitations, and revelations. The Prophet's job is to guide people to the gate of the Celestial Kingdom. Each of us have to find out for ourselves what we, personally, have to do to receive exaltation.

Finally, what will you say to someone who prays about something the Prophet says, and gets a very clear answer that he should not obey it? What about the person who prays diligently, and gets clear direction to do something the Prophet says is wrong and will lead to excommunication? Should this person submit to the Prophet in disregard to the clear communication from the Holy Ghost? That is really what all of this comes down to. Are we willing to lean on the "arm of flesh" when the Spirit tells us otherwise? Or are we willing to do anything and everything that the Spirit tells us to do?

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon

I am applying all of what I say to myself, and do not expect this to be anyone elses guide

I am comfortable with this too, as I believe it is the privilege of every worthy person to receive revelation,visions, and miracles. I am not comfortable if one receives revelation for a group of people outside of his or her stewardship. If I needed to learn something for my Family and God wanted to reveal this to me in vision I am comfortable with this. But I would be very sceptical if a man in my Ward came to me and said that he had received a vision pertaining to my family.

This statement is very foreign to my experiences, though I cannot say it is wrong. The statement would indicate that if we follow the words of the Scriptures (Prophetic words written down), then we are in fact stunting our own spiritual growth. I do not see this as a very helpful standard, as it would throw out the standard works as something that should not be followed, while relying only on the visions, or words that we receive through the holy spirit. While receiving revelation through the spirit is the ideal, I cannot see how this is facilitates learning without previous written words of the scriptures.

Not even Lehi, in the book of Mormon, was willing to dispense with the Holy Scriptures. He was willing to send his boys back to jerusalem, to what may have been certain death. God commanded Nephi to kill for these writings, to ensure that generations would not be entirely lost. Both seem to be evidence for the importance of Prophetic words holding some sway.

One may say that there are no Prophets today, but if one holds the Prophets of today to be on par with those who wrote Holy Scripture then it seems important to at least test their words, and thoughtfully contemplate what they are saying in relationship to our own lives.

I would not say anything to them, as I am only speaking for myself. Following a Prophet is entirely voluntary and is the decision of that person. Ultimately it is between them and God.

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From what I can see, we define things differently.

It appears to me that you are saying that everything the Prophet says is to be taken the same as what is written in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

However, from what I can see in the scriptures, as well as the teachings of Joseph Smith and other early leaders, a Prophet is only on the par with the scriptures when he is specifically acting in the office of Prophet. Yet, from what you are saying, it appears that you consider everything he says to be on par with the scriptures. Is that right?

I find myself hard pressed to find instances where any of the recent Prophets have stated specifically that they are speaking for the Lord. Everyone around me says that when he speaks in General Conference, we can accept it as scripture. How interesting and convenient. This relieves us of the responsibility to follow the Spirit, since all we have to do is listen to whatever he says and let him interpret everything for us. Since everything he says at General Conference is scripture, all we have to do is read all of the GC talks, and follow them, and everything is hunky-dory.

But that is not what the scriptures teach us. We know that even the scriptures aren't as perfect as many seem to think the Prophet is. So, we say that we will let the Prophet interpret the scriptures for us, and we will follow him in all things, expecting that he will never lead us astray.

Well, I will admit to the possibility that he will never lead us astray. But that doesn't mean that he will lead us where we, individually, need to go, either.

One last thought here. It seems to me that the whole mantra of "Follow the Prophet" has led us to focus on conforming to a model. Everyone wears similar clothes. Everyone thinks and believes all the same things. Life should not be about conformance. The journey to the Celestial Kingdom is supposed to be about each person's own journey and experiences. That is why we are supposed to rely on the Spirit, not on the arm of flesh. That is why we are supposed to test all things that the Prophet says by the Spirit. Conformance is NOT part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nor is it a part of the Covenant of Abraham, nor is it a part of the eternal principles of the Father. And I see it as being an offshoot of the Prophetic Infallibility Theory.

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Not exactly, What I am saying is when he is acting as a Prophet, what he says is on par with the Scriptures. Neither the Scriptures or the Prophet are infallible, but both can bring men unto Christ. If they are doing this, the words they say can be very beneficial indeed.

I just believe that God does not expect his children to "work out their salvation with fear and trembling" without support. The Scriptures and Prophets can help with this. Ultimately, it is between God and Man how best that man can achieve his salvation and exaltation. Some need the guidance of Holy Prophets and the Scriptures to understand and improve their relationships with the Savior, and others may rely more heavily on a direct line via the Holy Spirit. I am not sure I am qualified to say which is best or even if the answer is an either or situation. I suspect a healthy mix of learning from Holy Men through the oral and written word and direct revelation is the best route, but that may just be true in my own life. I could not determine the best way for another person.

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE Morm. 9: 31   31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been. I think we should learn from the mistakes of our leaders, rather then just condemn them. They will make mistakes and as they are far from fallible. It seems that this is a good way to approach the mistakes of past and present leadership.

I think we should learn from the mistakes of our leaders, rather then just condemn them. They will make mistakes and as they are far from fallible. It seems that this is a good way to approach the mistakes of past and present leadership.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?

Joseph Smith

This one is a difficult on with me. It seems that he is in fact saying that there will always be a majority of General Authorities who will have the Keys until Christ comes, otherwise this statement would not be applicable today, and we are lost through no fault of our own. I cannot accept that, and therefore I have to believe that the keys reside in the Apostles. If they do not, then the Earth will be waisted at the Second Coming of Christ.

Joseph Smith

The ultimate source of Truth is God.

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough - Page 18

Is this part of a recorded talk by Joseph Smith or someone else claiming he said so?

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 18

The Prophet was quoted as saying this. Orson Hyde, William G. Nelson, Ezra T. Clark all quoted similar proclamations and as quoted in the Teaching of Joseph Smith.

Source 1

I also believe that the Church will not fall into apostasy based on a Scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants

It seems unlikely that the keys would be committed to man on Earth, and from that the Gospel would role forth, unless those keys remained with man. There is no indication that these keys have been given to any other entity then the first presidency and the Quorum of the twelve. It also seem unlikely that the keys and the Gospel could role forth without some organized effort. It seems that from the time of Joseph Smith the only way this could happen was through a concerted missionary effort, one that is being forwarded by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints