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I couldn't agree more with you, LDS! I think that this kind of thinking really takes off some times. And it all started with pres Woodruf's famous statement, didn't it?

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President Packer also quoted out of the Church handbook

I believe this is a correct way to approach the issue. A true leader should invite...in a spirit of gentleness and meekness , and members have the free agency to accept the council or to ignore it. There is no compulsion in this. A leader who chooses to "force" someone to act in a certain way by using his privilege as a leader is misusing that power. In my opinion, true obedience to God, can only be voluntary, and with a clear mind.

If we choose to follow the council of our leaders it should be based on the Spirit's direction and a knowledge that they must remain within the purview of their stewardship and in accordance to the will and mind of God.
John Taylor stated such:

These statements do not connote blind obedience at all. In both cases, these Men of God talk about using free agency and the Spirit as a guide. It seems that all prophets have been under the understanding that if a man practices unrighteous dominion he may lose the authority to work within his stewardship.

Until that point I believe the Lord asks us to not "speak evil of the Lord's anointed" or more specifically, If a man is within his stewardship and is a righteous man we should not try to besmirch him in public, only because we disagree with a particular decision that he makes. If we disagree with that person we go to him in private, and not discuss our disagreement in public. If we believe he is abusing his authority either through sin or misuse of authority, then there are measures that can be taken.

I think we have to take this issue in context and with the entirety of the words that have been spoken. Prophets (as well as local leaders within their limited steward ships) are provided to assist us to draw closer to God, by introducing and reiterating necessary concepts of the Gospel to prepare us to receive further light an knowledge directly from the Lord. We are encouraged to test their words though the Holy Spirit. But I believe once we determine that a man is a Prophet we should at least listen to his warnings and councils to further assist us in finding refuge from the evils of the World. Their words should not be a stumbling block to us, but rather a Guide to help us understand the Doctrines of God. In all of this we still have our free agency.

I only have one question in regards to this discussion: Should the Words of a Prophet, when speaking in the capacity of a Prophet, be accepted as if it were the from God's own mouth? Should we take special steps if we believe these words are coming from God? I guess that was two questions/

Edited: dbackers on 9th Sep, 2009 - 10:23am

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon

Your first question there is really the point of this whole discussion. When he is speaking in the capacity of his Priesthood office, as the Prophet, his words should be accepted as God's, as he is speaking for God. And, yes, we should take special steps to do whatever we are told at that point.

However - when is he speaking for God? The common Mormon culture now says that no matter what he says, we will be blameless if we follow him. Our little children are taught that he cannot lead us astray. We consider him infallible, making him greater than us.

There is only one way that we can tell when he is speaking for God. That is when the Holy Ghost confirms his words.

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I believe the compulsion exists but is indirect. When you're telling members that they are free to choose to follow the prophet and you're telling them that the gates of hell won't prevail against them, what are you indirectly implying of those who object the words of the prophet then? When you are telling them the prophets cannot lead you astray (infallibility)what are you indirectly asking the members to do?, when you say TRUE latter day Saints sustain the prophets, what is being implied to those who do not?, when you are saying those who follow the prophet will obtain eternal life, what is being implied of those who do not? And most of all, when the Church encourages you to pray about a particular doctrine but if the answer is not the one according to the Church then the answer is not from God, what is being implied? And I can go on and on....Look at the list of affirmations and think what I am trying to get at.

But the Church says that the answer must be in tune with what the Church teaches so if you get a different answer, is not from God. Why to bother to pray then and listen to the Spirit if the Spirit only speaks to Church leaders? I just listen and obey then.

Encouraged but at the same time being warned that the answer MUST be in tune with Church doctrine, otherwise must be discarded. That's the whole point.

I fully agree. I have no problems whatsoever to listen to the words of the Prophet. My issue becomes one when is taught that he cannot lead us astray ever and when we are not TRULY encouraged to receive an answer for ourselves (if you pray about it and is not how the Church thinks, does not come from God). I also have an issue with the golden calf-mentality that prophets as well as other General Authorities are somehow infallible and we should seek to emulate their example. For me, there is only one person we should follow and emulate and that's Christ. His example is perfect and there is no need to pray or wonder whether what he is saying is true or not. We know it is. HE is the ONLY SURE foundation.

Jesus said:

I think in the modern church we are going further and further away from this and more about being close to the leaders than to Christ who is the ONLY one that can make us return back to our Father in Heaven.

Rather off topic, but... When the need of focusing on Christ is even mentioned instead of focus on church leaders, some members at times get very defensive and they actually fight you against it. Almost Anti-Christ/Satanic in nature. At least in my experience and observation.

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Thank you so much, LDS!

I remember being out with the missionary once. We taught a woman who happened to be a psychologist. When we came to the "pray about the book" part, she became displeased. She said that is a dangerous approach, because the only acceptable answer would be that the book is true. If she were to tell them she got a negative answer we would keep on encouraging her to pray until the answer became positive. So, she was implying that this was really playing with her mind and will.

Now, the book IS true, though :-), but it is the same principle as LDS is addressing. IMO.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?

It seems like some (I am not singling anyone out in this forum, I am speaking generally of some in the Church) have inferred that we must either rely strictly on the Holy Spirit as our Guide, and reject any counsel coming from Prophets or from the Scripture, or that we must rely strictly on what a Modern Prophet has said and what scripture have said, regardless of the promptings of the Spirit to follow a unique path. Does it not seem reasonable that the answer is found in both Prophetic Words and Divine personal Guidance?

Do we have some agreement on the following points?:

1. Prophets,Apostles, Patriarchs are necessary for Scripture to be brought to the Earth , and are a necessary part of God's plan to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

2. Without the Prophets and the Scriptures, mankind has little or no reference point to find out their true relationship to God. Mankind cannot, without authorized human teachers (either through oral or written tradition), or heavenly messengers, know about God and his true nature. Sometimes we must rely on authorized servants of God to help us understand the nature of God or bring us to a point where we can understand him through direct revelation. Even the Prophet Joseph Smith had to rely on the words of a Prophet named James to bring him to the point where he could see God the Father and his son Jesus Christ. He had to initially rely on a human teacher to bring him to a realization of his necessity to go to God in Prayer. Without the benefit of prophetic utterance, Joseph would not have been prepared to come before God to ask his questions in faith.

3. Direction from the Holy Spirit is essential for a man to return to God. Without the Holy Spirit the importance of the teachings of God's authorized servants cannot be understood, or are misinterpreted (I.e. Many religious traditions from interpretations of the prophets of the Bible.) The Spirit should direct us to truth and ultimately is the final and greatest source of truth. It does not however, negate the many passages in the scriptures that say Prophets are necessary and do speak for God.

Rather off topic, but...

I am not sure LDS, I understand the comment on being compelled to follow the Prophet. It does not seem we are "compelled", even indirectly to follow the advice of the Prophets or do anything in this Church. Being "compelled" to do something requires a loss of free will in some manner. A statement such as " the gates of hell will not prevail against thee" which is found in the Doctrine of Covenants is a Positive affirmation (no loss of will, but a protection from some outside source) rather then a negative (or being forced or compelled to do something). A belief in infallibility (one which I do not hold) does not imply compulsion, but implies that some believe the Prophet is the direct mouth piece of God (which I do believe when he speaks as such). Still there is no compulsion in following him, and there are billions today who feel no compulsion to do so. The assertion that following the words of the Prophet, when they are inspired of God, can bring one to eternal life is not compulsive in nature, and could be argued to be scriptural (knowing God, brings eternal life and Prophets and Scripture are an essential source to understand and know Him). Finely, asking a person to go to God to find answers to their questions, does not seem to involve any sort of compulsion. It seems to me, to be the least compulsive way to ask someone to learn truth.

Ultimately it seems we choose freely to believe or dis-believe in Prophetic words (if they are indeed such) with no compulsion to do so whatsoever.

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Actually no, that's not what some are saying (including me). We are NOT saying to reject the words of the Prophets. We are NOT saying to rely only on the modern prophets. We are NOT saying these things.

What we are saying is to LISTEN to the words of the Prophets and receive our OWN revelation concerning what he has said. We are saying that just because he speaks does not mean that everything he says is doctrine or what God wants us to know. We are saying the Prophet is a man and is not infallible. We are saying he speaks his opinion in many topics.

What I am saying is that the ONLY sure foundation is Jesus Christ. He is almost forgotten of this whole scenario. As we follow His example, we will not be led astray. When we trust in the arm of the flesh without much thought or prayer, then we are putting ourselves in risk. Even Joseph Smith when he finished reading James, he went and pray about what he has read. It makes me quite uncomfortable to hear the Primary song "Follow the Prophet....Follow the Prophet". Why not, follow Jesus Christ? Why not, Jesus? The only begotten of the Father, the only one who can help us return back to Heavenly Father! What is happening that He seems to be pushed and pushed "at the back" of our Church teachings when we talk about "following" and men (prophets, general authorities, local leaders) at the front? It makes me very irritated.

It is silly to encourage someone to pray about a particular point of doctrine and when the answer given does not agree with Church doctrine then is labeled as "not from God". Basically "Go and pray but if it happens that you don't get the same answer than us, then you're in the wrong". It's silly.

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 21

LDS
I was not including you in the "some" category, and I do not think anyone on this forum would fall under that category. I was only making an observation that there are those who believe it is an either/or situation and there are extremes on both sides. One side strictly following every word of the Prophet without spiritual guidance, and others who believe there is no need for Prophets. I do not think there are any here who have argued strictly either way.

I really do not think we disagree that much on this issue. I feel some of your same frustrations when Christ is not the primary focus of our teachings. I also feel that a Prophet is most prophetic when he takes the emphasis off of him, and testifies of Christ.