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That information hurts my heart, more than - Page 24 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 3rd Apr, 2011 - 11:23pm
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Are Mormons meant to follow blindly? We may say no, but if you disagree what do you do? Pray UNTIL you believe? Should we believe that all that is written and said by the Modern Prophets is correct and infallible? If so, then why do we have to pray about it? Is it for us to believe what they say or really to find out if that is what we ought to be doing? Controversial Mormon Issue.
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The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? - Page 24
I believe you are thinking right and I see it much the same way too, however it is not so easy depending on your involvement in the Church because the Membership and her Leadership do not really think that way. Basically, whatever is said by a leader (local or Utah) must be obeyed. Spirituality is measured by the number of activities you attend and how friendly and fun you can be. Worthiness is measured by your calling. In other words you sit in attendance and hear things that do not really focus on the big picture so it is like going back to primary school with everyone telling you that you should be still be doing finger painting because if you don't you're not with us. I believe in Truth, however Truth must have a source and finding Truth is very difficult. It will be nice if Church can be an inspirational place to help you discover further Truth but I am finding that this is mostly done by personal study and research. For me that is sad because at some point you do need to be guided just as Adam was when he was asked if he knew what he was doing and he said he did not save that he was commanded to do it.
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QUOTE do not really focus on the big picture so it is like going back to primary school with everyone telling you that you should be still be doing finger painting
Isn't there another thread here that talks about this very thing? The church IS Primary. That's where the "general population" goes to learn the "milk" of the gospel. To learn the "meat," we have to go one step further, maybe leaps and bounds forward; we have to go to the temple; we have to read and study and search things out for ourselves and ever seek the Holy Ghost who testifies to us of all truth.
QUOTE It will be nice if Church can be an inspirational place to help you discover further Truth but I am finding that this is mostly done by personal study and research.
Yes, it would be nice to go to church and have some really deep discussions of doctrine -- like we do here -- with other people of like mind and not have people gasp in scandalized shock.
Adam was doing as his Father commanded, and waiting - but still acting on what he had been told to do - waiting faithfully for further light and knowledge. Do you think he didn't get a little restless and impatient sometimes, just as we can be, sometimes?
Further light and knowledge come when we "seek, ask, knock." And in the meantime, we need to continue on in faith as Adam did, in spite of impatience and even frustration at things we see that need correcting that we have no control over. All we can control is our own salvation and teaching our families "in the way [they] should go."
The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon
QUOTE (FarSeer)Isn't there another thread here that talks about this very thing? The church IS Primary.
I think that was started by Amonhi actually and he painted a picture of the Church taking you only so far and then you have to go on your own to find the rest of the Truth. He is another example of the lack of specific position given... Thus allowing types like him to excite Members still wondering if what the Prophet said is enough. Although I do agree that there are some things that you need to find on your own my point here is that the Church does not teach that. The Church focuses on Members relying wholly on what the Prophet says for their day to day living. My other point is that the Church puts itself as having all the Truth in one place, but yet the deeper you research the more you see there are many unanswered questions. These questions should really be answered because they are not mystical but the direct answer does not seem to come these days, it is mostly handled with "We have no position..." or "That is behind us now...". To sum up, I understand what you mean, but I'm not sure that I agree. I believe an organization setup to disseminate Truth under the banner of Christ's Church should do so in a consistent manner and not leave it to the whims and fancies of various lay leaders who interpret things as it is convenient to them. I also believe that as Prophet if direct revelation is had then there are things that should be declared and answered.
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Consider this really good talk given by David A. Bednar.
QUOTE In the grand division of all of God's creations, there are things to act and things to be acted upon (see 2 Nephi 2:13-14). As sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, we have been blessed with the gift of agency-the capacity and power of independent action. Endowed with agency, we are agents, and we primarily are to act and not only to be acted upon-especially as we seek to obtain and apply spiritual knowledge.
Learning by faith and from experience are two of the central features of the Father's plan of happiness. The Savior preserved moral agency through the Atonement and made it possible for us to act and to learn by faith. Lucifer's rebellion against the plan sought to destroy the agency of man, and his intent was that we as learners would only be acted upon.
Consider the question posed by Heavenly Father to Adam in the Garden of Eden: "Where art thou?" (Genesis 3:9). The Father knew where Adam was hiding, but He nonetheless asked the question. Why? A wise and loving Father enabled His child to act in the learning process and not merely be acted upon. There was no one-way lecture to a disobedient child, as perhaps many of us might be inclined to deliver. Rather, the Father helped Adam as a learner to act as an agent and appropriately exercise his agency.
Recall how Nephi desired to know about the things his father, Lehi, had seen in the vision of the tree of life. Interestingly, the Spirit of the Lord begins the tutorial with Nephi by asking the following question: "Behold, what desirest thou?" (1 Nephi 11:2). Clearly the Spirit knew what Nephi desired. So why ask the question? The Holy Ghost was helping Nephi to act in the learning process and not simply be acted upon. Notice in 1 Nephi 11-14 how the Spirit both asked questions and encouraged Nephi to "look" as active elements in the learning process.
From these examples we recognize that as learners, you and I are to act and be doers of the word and not simply hearers who are only acted upon. Are you and I agents who act and seek learning by faith, or are we waiting to be taught and acted upon? Are the children, youth, and adults we serve acting and seeking to learn by faith, or are they waiting to be taught and acted upon? Are you and I encouraging and helping those we serve to seek learning by faith? We are all to be anxiously engaged in asking, seeking, and knocking (see 3 Nephi 14:7).
A learner exercising agency by acting in accordance with correct principles opens his or her heart to the Holy Ghost and invites His teaching, testifying power, and confirming witness. Learning by faith requires spiritual, mental, and physical exertion and not just passive reception. It is in the sincerity and consistency of our faith-inspired action that we indicate to our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, our willingness to learn and receive instruction from the Holy Ghost. Thus, learning by faith involves the exercise of moral agency to act upon the assurance of things hoped for and invites the evidence of things not seen from the only true teacher, the Spirit of the Lord.
Learning by faith and from experience are two of the central features of the Father's plan of happiness. The Savior preserved moral agency through the Atonement and made it possible for us to act and to learn by faith. Lucifer's rebellion against the plan sought to destroy the agency of man, and his intent was that we as learners would only be acted upon.
Consider the question posed by Heavenly Father to Adam in the Garden of Eden: "Where art thou?" (Genesis 3:9). The Father knew where Adam was hiding, but He nonetheless asked the question. Why? A wise and loving Father enabled His child to act in the learning process and not merely be acted upon. There was no one-way lecture to a disobedient child, as perhaps many of us might be inclined to deliver. Rather, the Father helped Adam as a learner to act as an agent and appropriately exercise his agency.
Recall how Nephi desired to know about the things his father, Lehi, had seen in the vision of the tree of life. Interestingly, the Spirit of the Lord begins the tutorial with Nephi by asking the following question: "Behold, what desirest thou?" (1 Nephi 11:2). Clearly the Spirit knew what Nephi desired. So why ask the question? The Holy Ghost was helping Nephi to act in the learning process and not simply be acted upon. Notice in 1 Nephi 11-14 how the Spirit both asked questions and encouraged Nephi to "look" as active elements in the learning process.
From these examples we recognize that as learners, you and I are to act and be doers of the word and not simply hearers who are only acted upon. Are you and I agents who act and seek learning by faith, or are we waiting to be taught and acted upon? Are the children, youth, and adults we serve acting and seeking to learn by faith, or are they waiting to be taught and acted upon? Are you and I encouraging and helping those we serve to seek learning by faith? We are all to be anxiously engaged in asking, seeking, and knocking (see 3 Nephi 14:7).
A learner exercising agency by acting in accordance with correct principles opens his or her heart to the Holy Ghost and invites His teaching, testifying power, and confirming witness. Learning by faith requires spiritual, mental, and physical exertion and not just passive reception. It is in the sincerity and consistency of our faith-inspired action that we indicate to our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, our willingness to learn and receive instruction from the Holy Ghost. Thus, learning by faith involves the exercise of moral agency to act upon the assurance of things hoped for and invites the evidence of things not seen from the only true teacher, the Spirit of the Lord.
David A. Bednar, "Seek Learning by Faith," Ensign, Sep 2007, 60-68Source 2
I do believe and understand that the Church teaches - in general - that to follow the Prophet is the best thing we can do, and we are encouraged in every possible way to understand that is a major precept of church doctrine and even church policy. However, in talks such as these that are given in regular intervals, we are also taught that we are to continually seek knowledge on our own. It's our responsibility and even a commandment.
QUOTE All of us were blessed by the challenge from President Gordon B. Hinckley in August 2005 to read the Book of Mormon by the end of that year. In extending the challenge, President Hinckley promised that faithfully observing this simple reading program would bring into our lives and into our homes "an added measure of the Spirit of the Lord, a strengthened resolution to walk in obedience to His commandments, and a stronger testimony of the living reality of the Son of God."8
Please note how this inspired challenge is a classic example of learning by faith. First, you and I were not commanded, coerced, or required to read. Rather, we were invited to exercise our agency as agents and act in accordance with correct principles. President Hinckley, as an inspired teacher, encouraged us to act and not just be acted upon. Each of us, ultimately, had to decide if and how we would respond to the challenge-and if we would endure to the end of the task.
Second, in proffering the invitation to read and to act, President Hinckley was encouraging each of us to seek learning by faith. No new study materials were distributed to members of the Church, and no additional lessons, classes, or programs were created by the Church. Each of us had our copy of the Book of Mormon, and a pathway into our heart opened wider through the exercise of our faith in the Savior as we responded to the First Presidency challenge. Thus, we were prepared to receive instruction from the only true teacher, the Holy Ghost.
The responsibility to seek learning by faith rests upon each of us individually, and this obligation will become increasingly important as the world in which we live grows more confused and troubled. Learning by faith is essential to our personal spiritual development and for the growth of the Church in these latter days. May each of us truly hunger and thirst after righteousness and be filled with the Holy Ghost (see 3 Nephi 12:6)-that we might seek learning by faith.
Please note how this inspired challenge is a classic example of learning by faith. First, you and I were not commanded, coerced, or required to read. Rather, we were invited to exercise our agency as agents and act in accordance with correct principles. President Hinckley, as an inspired teacher, encouraged us to act and not just be acted upon. Each of us, ultimately, had to decide if and how we would respond to the challenge-and if we would endure to the end of the task.
Second, in proffering the invitation to read and to act, President Hinckley was encouraging each of us to seek learning by faith. No new study materials were distributed to members of the Church, and no additional lessons, classes, or programs were created by the Church. Each of us had our copy of the Book of Mormon, and a pathway into our heart opened wider through the exercise of our faith in the Savior as we responded to the First Presidency challenge. Thus, we were prepared to receive instruction from the only true teacher, the Holy Ghost.
The responsibility to seek learning by faith rests upon each of us individually, and this obligation will become increasingly important as the world in which we live grows more confused and troubled. Learning by faith is essential to our personal spiritual development and for the growth of the Church in these latter days. May each of us truly hunger and thirst after righteousness and be filled with the Holy Ghost (see 3 Nephi 12:6)-that we might seek learning by faith.
JB, I think your heart "hungers and thirsts" for learning, and you would prefer that the Church "lay it out" for you. But we have to act for ourselves and seek that learning through our own efforts.
I love this quote from Henry B. Eyring. And while it does say we need to follow the prophets, it also states that we need to "confirm in prayer" the words of the prophet:
QUOTE Another fallacy is to believe that the choice to accept or not accept the counsel of prophets is no more than deciding whether to accept good advice and gain its benefits or to stay where we are. But the choice not to take prophetic counsel changes the very ground upon which we stand. That ground becomes more dangerous. The failure to take prophetic counsel lessens our power to take inspired counsel in the future. The best time to have decided to help Noah build the ark was the first time he asked. Each time he asked after that, each failure to respond would have lessened sensitivity to the Spirit. And so each time his request would have seemed more foolish, until the rain came. And then it was too late.
Every time in my life when I have chosen to delay following inspired counsel or decided that I was an exception, I came to know that I had put myself in harm's way. Every time that I have listened to the counsel of prophets, felt it confirmed in prayer, and then followed it, I have found that I moved toward safety. Along the path, I have found that the way had been prepared for me and the rough places made smooth. God led me to safety along a path that was prepared with loving care, sometimes prepared long before.
Every time in my life when I have chosen to delay following inspired counsel or decided that I was an exception, I came to know that I had put myself in harm's way. Every time that I have listened to the counsel of prophets, felt it confirmed in prayer, and then followed it, I have found that I moved toward safety. Along the path, I have found that the way had been prepared for me and the rough places made smooth. God led me to safety along a path that was prepared with loving care, sometimes prepared long before.
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QUOTE (FarSeer)JB, I think your heart "hungers and thirsts" for learning, and you would prefer that the Church "lay it out" for you.
The first part is correct but not the second part. You see I do agree that it is our responsibility to learn and become enlightened, but that is not my point. I am trying to say that once you do learn individually and come up with conclusions (answers), if I can call it that - I do not have a better word at the moment, then the Church will likely fight against what you have studied / concluded. For instance I may see that it is not necessary to attend extra activities of the Church and limit my attendance to the usual Sacrament Meeting and so forth rather than the Church picnic. However, the leaders may see you as less active and not supporting enough. You may say well that is their problem, but at the same time the Prophets will tell you things like sustain your local leaders, or they will never lead you astray, and so forth. This of course is a frivolous example, but one nevertheless that really affects marriages and families when they barely have time for each other yet they are in some 'activity'.
Another for instance take a Topic like plural marriage. It was considered a vital Doctrine, but now it is all but banished from Discussion. It almost seems to be that anything that seems to be out of mainstream thinking is kept secret under consequence. Why is that? Why is it that Joseph practiced it in secret for nine years in the first place? He only then mentioned it when it was being published in the local paper.
If you were Black could you feel just that you were being denied blessings of the Temple and the Priesthood in your home just because Brigham obviously had some racial issues? If there was no Doctrine about Plural marriage and it came to your attention through the news that Pres. Monson actually had five wives now how would you feel? I can only imagine how the people back then must of felt. It is easy when you are not Black, or put in these situations to just accept an explanation because it happened decades ago or more importantly it does not directly affect us.
I feel based on my research the reason is because certain things in Church history just do not add up. I'm not going to take this Thread to list all. Does that help you better understand what I am saying? I know you have not been in this section in awhile, but if you look through the months of various Discussions in various Threads you will see several key points:
1. The starting Church and what has been taught then is very different from what we are taught now. More and more Members are seeing this as they research. A lot of them choose to be vocal about it like Nighthawk and others just keep it to themselves and yet others become fanatical because they feel all this time they have been lied to. This is where my question comes in about following something that is different to what is understood.
2. Joseph was very vocal and decisive about the heavens' position on things but now it seems obscure and not as clear. Its more generalized if I can call it that. Most Church Historians (still active and now excommunicated) can tell you that once you research you begin to see things in a very different light but of course to publicly mention that can result in your excommunication so some have chosen to hold on to their Membership.
Ironically, for me in many cases it is not so much that the Prophet said so... But its what he may not be saying. Some Members look for some great divide or a setting of the House in order - neither of which are taught by the Church and why would the Church teach something like that - it would be counter productive. It may be a case of certain members who actually do study on their own begin to divide themselves from the Church and look for some kind of setting in order because they do not like the direction the Church is heading. Then that is where my question comes up - about who is actually running the Church. We cannot on one hand say it is the Lord's Church and yet think that the Lord is happy with how things are going and He is going to have to get someone else.
OK it is late and I may have confused you more. Like I said you can read more of my thoughts by visiting the other Threads here.
The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?
Due to several things in my life at this current time I am not much interested in 'Deep' Doctrine anymore. I am also disenchanted by the constant change and definitions given as to what is Doctrine and what is not. I am left to ask what is Mormonism? I am also left to ask what does God really want because what I thought once had all the answers instead leaves me with a lot of questions. So in answer to the original question of this Thread I now have to answer with another question 'Which prophet?" because they each seem to say something different thus making it not enough.
The Mormon Prophet So That Enough - Page 24
Now, I can truly say: No, it is not enough. I don't believe that every word that comes out of his mouth is doctrine. Right now I am walking a very thin line of whether or not I am inside Mormonism. Many, many questions and almost no answers.
The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 24
That information hurts my heart, more than I can express. But I have also walked that line and asked those questions - more than once. My decision always has been to trust in God and Jesus Christ and in what I know to be the "most truth" that I can find on this Earth. I have to rely on the Holy Ghost to teach me the truth, to help me discern right and wrong in all things.
We all have to go through that, I suppose. I have had experiences with the Holy Ghost that I cannot deny or forget that have shown me the way I need to go. I don't trust in "the arm of flesh" but in my Father in Heaven. I respect the leaders of the church as called of God, but they are not infallible.
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