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The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? - Page 7

It is basically what I have been trying to say.  I see conflicts, and the only answers I ever get, except from apostates, is "the brethren can't lead us astray."  I can't accept that.

NightHawk

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[quote]I see conflicts[/quote]

Yes you see conflicts from the old Prophets but remember what Joseph Smith said "A Prophet is a Prophet only when he is acting as such". Therefore, now you have to analyze whether the teachings of President Gordon B Hinckley who is the Prophet of our time, are in conflict with the Scriptures. So far, I see no evidence of that.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon

LDS, great quote, thanks.  I think we need to keep in mind that revelations are not necessarily in the scriptures either or that new revelations can change previous revelations or scripture.  For example, revelation regarding plural marriage.  In the Marine Corps we were taught to always follow the last command given.  I think this must be true of revelation as well.  We know the Church is a changing body because we receive revelation through our prophet and don't have just the Bible or Book of Mormon to guide us.  Therefore, I believe, we, in the Church, need to be open to change as Heavenly Father's word to us changes.

Edited: tenaheff on 20th Jan, 2004 - 10:36pm

Page 7 Enough That So Prophet Mormon The

Let's "resurrect" an old topic here.

Some of my thinking has come together recently about this topic, and what I have written here earlier, as well as what others have written. Perhaps we weren't as far apart as it initially appeared.

Please read all of this message before jumping to conclusions about what I am saying. There may be some apparent paradoxes here for a while.

Here are a few statements.

- To enter the Celestial Kingdom, we must follow the scriptures.

- To enter the Celestial Kingdom, we must follow the Prophet(s).

- We cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom by following the scriptures.

- We cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom by following the Prophet(s).

Sounds a little bit contradictory, right? Yet I have become convinced that all four of these statements are completely correct.

To clarify this, consider Lehi's dream in 1 Nephi. When Nephi was shown all of his father's dream, he was given quite a bit of explanation, including the fact that in order to reach the Tree of Life, which is our Father's Love, we must hold to the Iron Rod, which is interpreted as the word of God. But what is the "word of God"? Is it the scriptures? Is it the words of the living Prophet? The answer to both questions is "yes and no." Essentially, the Iron Rod represents a combination of the scriptures and the words of the living Prophet, as confirmed to each of us by the Holy Ghost. So, without the constant confirmation and guidance of the Holy Ghost, we cannot hold to the iron rod. We can attempt to do so, but the "mists of darkness" which are the interference of the adversary with our ability to receive the guidance of the Holy Ghost can cause us to misunderstand what the other two parts are telling us. Also, without the Holy Ghost, we cannot understand how to lead our lives, for ourselves.

Now, you all know that I have frequently written about "spiritual independance" and how important it is. This is related to my four statements above.

We must follow the scriptures and the prophets in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom. But if we don't learn now how to receive personal revelation, to have the constant guidance of the Holy Ghost, then we cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. Only those who have moved beyond reliance upon the scriptures and the prophets can receive Celestial glory. I am not talking about those who think they have moved beyond reliance, but those who actually do. Those who no longer rely upon the scriptures and the prophets will appear to be following the scriptures and prophets closer than any of the rest of us, but it won't be because they are following these sources of wisdom, but rather because they are fully in tune with them.

As I consider what I know of the Last Days, and events that are happening and will happen, I know that this is one of the most important elements of the Gospel. There may be times when we cannot get guidance from the Prophet, or from SLC, or even from our own Stake, District, or Mission President. There could even be times when we can't get guidance from our own Bishop! If we don't learn how to receive personal revelation, how to be guided only by the Spirit, then we will falter, and we will fall during the tribulations to come.

Anyway, I hope this has made my position a little more clear.

NightHawk

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Nighthawk, you like this one huh?

What if that already happens?

Yet again you are saying the same thing a different way, I thought we already went the length and breath of this issue. What more is there? Yes we need spiritual independence to survive, but that does not mean we cannot use the resources we have around us, especially when they come from God and when I am not in 'survival mode'.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?

Nighthawlk, understand your position on the subject, I do agree with you about receiving personal confirmation about the words of the Prophets. What I do not personally agree is your concept of who will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. I do not think is so black and white like you're putting it. I think we will be surprised who will make it to the Celestial Kingdom, we are not going to be judged generally but individually, therefore I do not think that is only a matter of whether we decide to follow the Scriptures or the words of the living Prophet. I think it goes beyond that and beyond our comprehension. That's why I refuse the concept that just because a member is sealed in the Temple they think they're getting an automatic 'ticket' to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough - Page 7

I was trying to clarify my thoughts. Apparently I am not very clear, as both of you saw something in there that I didn't write.

I was trying to say that we MUST follow the prophets and the scriptures, but that we must also go beyond them. If we don't have the Holy Ghost to guide us in the individual application of both the words of the living prophets and the scriptures, we will not live our lives in such a way as to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

I didn't know that I was putting it in "black and white" terms. I was, and am, trying to say that if we don't actively seek out how to receive revelation, on a constant basis, we will not attain a Celestial Glory.

The great thing is that there are so many references and documents telling us that we can experience these things, now. That we can receive this wonderous gift, of revelation, for ourselves, in this life. We are commanded to prepare ourselves, to receive the Holy Ghost, to receive the Baptism of Fire (or the Mighty Change of Heart), and to have our Calling and Election made sure. All of this in this life.

I am certainly not judging anyone. I am just learning, and trying to share what I have learned, about this subject. By writing this here, I am trying to clarify my thoughts, and see how they appear in writing, and see how others see them.

I apologize if you find that this is either off topic, boring, or repetetive. I feel that I have gained different insight into the requirements and the process, and wanted to share it with you, my friends.

I am not even talking about survival here, except as a side note. I am thinking of excelling, of gaining exaltation, of truly being obedient to my Father.

Perhaps this is a fruitless discussion. If so, ignore it.

NightHawk

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 7

It is not that I do not understand (I am just speaking for myself, LDS can answer for herself), nor is it that I think it is fruitless, but yes I do feel it is repetitive, well at least for me, but maybe i am participating in it too much.

We established many times that we are responsible for our salvation and that our achieving Celestial glory will be true the Atonement after all we can do. That is the key --> after all we can do. I do not believe we have to excel beyond the prophets, but in fact live the simple things. We are way behind what the prophets have thought further more to dream in the idea that we reach a spiritual plateua that we become prophets ourselves. In other words... the Gospel is very simple, living it on the other hand is quite a challenge, I am not talking about just obeying the Word of Wisdom and paying your tithes, but really living it --> taking up your cross (this denotes great difficulty). When one has done this and made their election sure then they know for themselves that they have 'reached' the point of spirituality where their commune with God is on par with the prophets themselves. I guess that I do not see readily apparent anyone reaching that at the moment, hence I do not dwell on the far reaching when I can barely swim. Not being around such persons making it more difficult to accept as well. 'I need Thee every hour' rings true when we can recognize that it is only God that can guide, but since our ears are 'deaf' in many situations we cannot preach anything other than follow the Prophet to this world that is full of confussion. If they do follow the Prophet then whenever there is a time that we have no more Prophet to follow then we would be versed in what one should be like and how to conduct the affairs within our sphere.

Oppossss... I appear to be ranting and may not make such sense. Let me stop.